Gays In Military

[qfnol31]

They're still secular organizations.

You won't be surprised by this, I don't think, but I'm a Cowboys fan.

[Laudate_Dominum]

P.S. I'm not being 100% serious above. No need to kill me with fire.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338439876' post='2438495']
Why don't you define the difference between the two, as I did earlier with the terms "homosexual," "open homosexual," and "active homosexual?"
[/quote]

why? they are both in the dictionary. google it

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1338441539' post='2438520']
They're still secular organizations. [/quote]

True, but they're sorta a-typical, don't you think?

[quote]You won't be surprised by this, I don't think, but I'm a Cowboys fan.
[/quote]

I am neither surprised or offended. In fact, it turns out that Eli's name is written on the lease for that new stadium. Ya know, since he's basically owned the Cowboys since he entered the league in '04.

[kujo]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1338441990' post='2438525']
why? they are both in the dictionary. google it
[/quote]

I was hoping that your argument was based on some sort of nuanced point of view that partially relied on subtle differences in semantics.

Silly me for thinking you even knew what the word "nuanced" means!

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338442127' post='2438527']
True, but they're sorta a-typical, don't you think?
[/quote]You didn't make that stipulation.

[kujo]

According to Dictionary.com:

Prejudice is "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason."

Discrimination- "treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit."

Thus, it appears that the difference lies in the nature of the thing. A prejudice is an opinion which, when used to justify an action, becomes an example of discrimination. Therefore, my statements about believing whatever you want, and not expecting military policy to reflect your religious beliefs, holds water here.

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1338442253' post='2438529']
You didn't make that stipulation.
[/quote]

Correct. Touche.

[4588686]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1338441141' post='2438514']
Does the Vatican actually say that homosexuals ought to be excluded from military service? I saw the CDF thing posted which basically says that it can be okay to discriminate against homosexuals because sexual orientation isn't like race or whatever. I didn't get the sense that banning homosexual people from military service is required by Church teaching, just that it's not wrong when institutions decide to make such a ban. No?

And yes, I'm lame at reading tl;dr threads before posting so sue me if this is repetitive stuff.
[/quote]

I had the same reading. I was told that I was wrong due to my shallow grasp of Catholicism but no further explanation was provided. I guess you also just have a shallow grasp of Catholicism.

[kujo]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1338442517' post='2438534']
I had the same reading. I was told that I was wrong due to my shallow grasp of Catholicism but no further explanation was provided. I guess you also just have a shallow grasp of Catholicism.
[/quote]

Not all of us can be as deep and learned as Socrates.

[4588686]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338441463' post='2438517']

Boy Scouts are a private organization that receives no funding from the government. Thus, they, like the Catholic Church, can hire and fire whoever they please. There was a case settled today in Orlando on this very issue, with the Girl Scouts not allowing a lesbian scout leader.
[/quote]


Exactly.

[4588686]

I have no problem with the Vatican prohibiting gays and women from the Priesthood. Private Catholic schools only hiring Catholics. Whatever. I am very big into the freedom of association. But you do not have a right to irrationally discriminate against your citizens on the secular plane.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1338442712' post='2438538']
I have no problem with the Vatican prohibiting gays and women from the Priesthood. Private Catholic schools only hiring Catholics. Whatever. I am very big into the freedom of association. But you do not have a right to irrationally discriminate against your citizens on the secular plane.
[/quote]

I understand why you, an atheist, would view such things this way. But Catholics should not and cannot faithfully believe as you. We must believe in the universal social or temporal Kingship of Christ, who has rule over all earthly governments. Holy Mother Church commands the faithful to convert not only individuals to the truths and morals of Jesus Christ and His Church but societies and the law of societies as well.


"The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ." By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "[b]to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, [u]laws and structures of the communities in which (they) live[/u]." The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good.[/b] It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church. Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies." -- CCC 2105

Edited May 31, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1338443940' post='2438548']
I understand why you, an atheist, would view such things this way. But Catholics should not and cannot faithfully believe as you. We must believe in the universal social or temporal Kingship of Christ, who has rule over all earthly governments. Holy Mother Church commands the faithful to convert not only individuals to the truths and morals of Jesus Christ and His Church but societies and the law of societies as well.


"The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ." By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "[b]to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, [u]laws and structures of the communities in which (they) live[/u]." The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good.[/b] It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church. Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies." -- CCC 2105
[/quote]

1. I didn't know Hasan was an atheist.

2. Does it ever bother you, or anyone else, that the Church has a tendency to tell us what we [font="Segoe UI, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]have to believe? I dunno...that's always been a stu[/color][/font][color=#282828]mbling block for [/color][color=#282828]me.[/color]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1338443940' post='2438548']
I understand why you, an atheist, would view such things this way. But Catholics should not and cannot faithfully believe as you. We must believe in the universal social or temporal Kingship of Christ, who has rule over all earthly governments. Holy Mother Church commands the faithful to convert not only individuals to the truths and morals of Jesus Christ and His Church but societies and the law of societies as well.


"The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ." By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "[b]to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, [u]laws and structures of the communities in which (they) live[/u]." The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good.[/b]
[/quote]
If I follow, you're saying that the way in which we are to evangelize and "awaken the love of the true and the good" is to ban gays from the military.
Weird....didn't seem to work for the first 200 years of the US!

Also, I still don't disagree with this. It would be fantastic if every individual in the US became a Christian and decided to enact laws reflecting that fact, including banning homosexuals from military service, teaching, and other roles deemed unsuitable. The fact is that the US isn't a Christian nation. It's a secular state with a set of laws that reflect [i]that[/i]