Discalced Carmelite Nun Communities

[emmaberry]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1346510537' post='2477144']
That's an interesting thought. When I started looking into Carmelite communties I was looking for those that seemed to have more of an emphasis on solitude. Well I entered a wonderful Carmelite community and I found that the balance of everything was perfect; just as our Holy Mother St. Teresa had put together. There is no talking to anyone during the day except the Superiors to get your permissions, and then at the recreations the community gets together to talk. It was a lot of fun; a time when the Sisters could be silly and have simple fun. I didn't find it a distraction. We had retreats during the year that went for 8 days at a time, and we wouldn't have recreations and sometimes we had "hermit" days where you could eat your dinner somewhere other than the refectory and you wouldn't have the afternoon recreation and hardly no work. The retreat days and hermit days were special, and then when you had recreations again you would enjoy the company of the Sisters. Then there is the 8 day retreat that the Sister would have before her Clothing or making Vows. No recreations for her the whole 8 days; that was really great. Before making her Solemn Profession, the Sister would go to the Chapel the night before and stay with Our Lord until midnight. Also, (just to share ) the Sister who was going to have a Ceremony would sleep in and the Community would process to her cell and sing to her to wake her up. That was beautiful too.

I don't know much about seeing the monastery before it's enclosed but when the Sisters came from Nebraska to PA, they had "tours" for people to go through and see it. The family also got to see their daughter, without the grille. So I could imagine that it was exciting for the family. As for the Sisters, they were probably excited to be enclosed and not have all these people walking around so they could continue there life of silence and prayer.


Edit: for spelling.
[/quote]

Out of props, but your former community sounds lovely!

[ACS67]

Do most Carmelites use the Liturgy of the Hours or do they have their own Divine Office? I thought I read somewhere that the traditional nuns in Nebraska use a different office and then there are those that use Latin in the Office. I am not aware that the Liturgy of the Hours is in Latin (maybe it is and I have just never seen it). Thanks!

[emmaberry]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1346627969' post='2477690']
Do most Carmelites use the Liturgy of the Hours or do they have their own Divine Office? I thought I read somewhere that the traditional nuns in Nebraska use a different office and then there are those that use Latin in the Office. I am not aware that the Liturgy of the Hours is in Latin (maybe it is and I have just never seen it). Thanks!
[/quote]

This will not fully answer your question, but the Nebraska Carmelites do things differently than the other US Carmels, besides the foundations Nebraska has made, of course. So I know their office is different/special, and of course they celebrate the Latin Mass. I believe their 'different' Office is Latin as well. Hopefully someone can specify the exact title of the Office they pray!

Edit: If you go [topic='122733']here[/topic] to post #25, Chiquitunga says that they are the only Carmel in the WORLD that recites the Carmelite Rite Divine Office (wow!).

From this site: [url="http://catholicquotations.blogspot.com/p/praying-divine-office.html"]http://catholicquotations.blogspot.com/p/praying-divine-office.html[/url] (scrolled down halfway)
[quote]"Strictly enclosed behind the walls of their convents the Nuns of the Carmels of Jesus Mary and Joseph in Valparaiso, NE and their daughter house in Elysburg, PA are the [b]only Carmelite Nuns in the world using the Carmelite Rite[/b], and they are flourishing.[b] They sing the Divine Office each day entirely in Latin[/b], and have the [b]Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite offered for them each day[/b]. They truly live the Carmelite vocation as it was lived by Saint Teresa of Avila and Saint Therese of the Child Jesus and of the Holy Face"[/quote]

Edited September 3, 2012 by emmaberry

[Chiquitunga]

Yes, the three Carmels of JMJ (all have the same name) in Valparaiso, NE - Elysburg, PA - and now Canyon, CA pray the Carmelite Rite (O.Carm.) Divine Office. Another name for it is the Rite of the Holy Sepulchre - [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelite_Rite"]http://en.wikipedia..../Carmelite_Rite[/url]

[img]http://images.cloud.worthpoint.com/wpimages/images/images1/1/0709/15/1_0236d6f0a02b31b8e750f452a5829dd8.jpg[/img]

from [url="http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/carmelite-rite-breviary-vulgate-latin-76842125"]here[/url] (the first is probably an earlier or later edition with just Carmel. instead of Ord.Carm.)

Soon after their founding (not sure when exactly, within the 16th century, read that somewhere) the Discalced Carmelite Order stopped using the O.Carm. Rite and used to Roman Rite instead. So yes, this is something very unique about the Carmel of JMJ. The ordinary traditional/Pre-Vatican II/Extraordinary (whatever is the right wording) for Discalced Carmelites (not O.Carm.) is [url="http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item46075a7559&item=300771079513&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=pUL9jh%252B0QTPO4ENiA2cl4uB76pA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_1692wt_1327"]this one[/url]. Actually I heard that Valparaiso was discerning between this one and the O.Carm. one, but chose O.Carm. ... perhaps because it would be easier with the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming also using it, who have reprinted it and provide it for the nuns - [url="http://www.carmelitemonks.org/CarmeliteRite.php"]http://www.carmelite...rmeliteRite.php[/url]

The other Carmels with an all Latin Office use the Roman Rite (which again, is the norm for OCDs) which currently is the [i]Liturgia Horarum[/i], or it's translated form[i] Liturgy of the Hours[/i] for the US/it's called simply [i]The Divine Office[/i] in the UK edition (different English translation). The Carmels that I know of that pray the full [i]Liturgia Horarum[/i] in Latin are Buffalo, Alexandria, Brooklyn & Wichita.

[img]http://static.bakeca.it/immagini/975/9755911b92df0dfcffb80bcbb4b322d9.jpg[/img]

A couple places where you can get it, [url="http://www.paxbook.com/"]http://www.paxbook.com/[/url] & [url="http://www.theologicalforum.org/"]http://www.theologicalforum.org/[/url] (note: there are a couple different editions, I'm not sure all the differences, one from the 80's another around/after 2000, so be careful to get the current one if you buy them used online)

And an online version, yay!!! [url="http://www.almudi.org/Portals/0/docs/Breviario/fuentes/breviario.html"]http://www.almudi.or.../breviario.html[/url]


p.s. and to supplement the LH they have their own proper book with their saints (rather than having it all together as the Roman Discalced Carmelite one on eBay posted above) The current US (& some other countries, etc.) [url="http://www.amazon.com/Carmelite-Proper-Liturgy-Hours/dp/8872880289/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1346650646&sr=8-4&keywords=carmelite+proper"]Carmelite Proper[/url], used by OCD and OCarm, and the [url="http://www.carmelite.org.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_CARMELITE_LITURGY_47.html"]current UK/Ireland, etc. one[/url] (only OCD) Hope this is not confusing!

Edited September 3, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1346647556' post='2477787']
And an online version, yay!!! [url="http://www.almudi.org/Portals/0/docs/Breviario/fuentes/breviario.html"]http://www.almudi.or.../breviario.html[/url]
[/quote]

This made me so happy. I love that this is online. May God reward you!

[ACS67]

Thank you Emma and Chiquitunga! That is all so very helpful!

[Chiquitunga]

Sure thing!

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1346647556' post='2477787']The other Carmels with an all Latin Office use the Roman Rite (which again, is the norm for OCDs) which currently is the [i]Liturgia Horarum[/i], or it's translated form[i] Liturgy of the Hours[/i] for the US/it's called simply [i]The Divine Office[/i] in the UK edition (different English translation). The Carmels that I know of that pray the full [i]Liturgia Horarum[/i] in Latin are Buffalo, Alexandria, Brooklyn & Wichita.

[img]http://static.bakeca.it/immagini/975/9755911b92df0dfcffb80bcbb4b322d9.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

I wanted to add to this that I have heard of a couple communities in the US that have received permission to use the UK [i]Divine Office[/i]. It is supposed to be a better translation from the Latin. I have seen it and it does appear nicer.. no little 70ish pictures every now and then, and no psalm prayers, which are not in the original Latin. I believe OLAM does this .. but I could be wrong. But I know the Erie, PA Carmel does.

Also, Morristown prays an all Latin Office now too, and I would assume it is [i]Liturgia Horarum [/i]but I am not certain as they started having a weekly Extraordinary Mass and maybe want to switch to that completely.

[ACS67]

The psalm prayers seem oddly out of place. And yes, some of the 70ish pictures and collects are rather bland. But of course those collects were from the Mass, which is why I am so glad we have the new translation!

Thanks again Chiquitunga! (who is pictured in your avatar? She looks very happy)

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='Mary's Margaret' timestamp='1346511678' post='2477145']
VJAM, that sounds like such a lovely community. Allowing the Sister to stay with her Lord into the night, then singing her into her special day! What blessings from our most loving God! Thank-you for sharing this with us.
[/quote]

Your very welcome.

I miss the life there very much. Please say a little prayer for me. Thankfully I have a priest who is very kindly giving his time and help to me as I continue discernment to Carmel. I'm very hopeful.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1346717303' post='2478032']
[b]I miss the life there very much[/b]. Please say a little prayer for me. Thankfully I have a priest who is very kindly giving his time and help to me as I continue discernment to Carmel. I'm very hopeful.
[/quote]

I am sure you do.. I almost miss it, and I have never even lived it! Just you describing it for us was so beautiful.

I will say a prayer for your discernment.. Leaving and adjusting all over again must be so difficult. I hope you find the Carmel you are called to. I don't know much about you at all, but I have a 'crush' on the JMJ Carmels. They are wonderful, if you have not checked them out.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1346716572' post='2478025']Thanks again Chiquitunga! (who is pictured in your avatar? She looks very happy)
[/quote]
It's Chiquitunga herself [url="http://chiquitunga.jimdo.com/"]http://chiquitunga.jimdo.com/[/url] That was her nickname before entering Carmel. She is a Discalced Carmelite Venerable now Hna. María Felicia de Jesús Sacramentado (Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament! )

It's funny you should mention how happy she looks .. her last words (she died in a sanitarium with her father present)

[i]"Dear daddy, how happy I am! How great is the Catholic religion! What a meeting with my Jesus! I am so happy! [/i][i]Jesus, I love you! What a sweet encounter! Virgin Mary![/i]

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1346718612' post='2478068']
It's funny you should mention how happy she looks .. her last words (she died in a sanitarium with her father present)

[b][i]"Dear daddy, how happy I am! How great is the Catholic religion! What a meeting with my Jesus! I am so happy! [/i][i]Jesus, I love you! What a sweet encounter! Virgin Mary![/i][/b]
[/quote]

How beautiful.

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346717845' post='2478038']
I am sure you do.. I almost miss it, and I have never even lived it! Just you describing it for us was so beautiful.

I will say a prayer for your discernment.. Leaving and adjusting all over again must be so difficult. I hope you find the Carmel you are called to. I don't know much about you at all, but I have a 'crush' on the JMJ Carmels. They are wonderful, if you have not checked them out.
[/quote]

This is very kind, may God reward you.

Yes, I love the JMJ Carmel also and would be thrilled if I was called to one of them. I am familliar with the one in Elysburg, but I'm not called there. Perhaps in the future one of the JMJ foundations I could call home; the life, traditions, and the Tradtional Latin Mass ... it is all so beautiful. The adjustment has been sorrowful. The life in the cloister doesn't compare with the life in the world. In there; He is everything and everything is for Him. The world couldn't care less. You can imagine what its like when feast days come around; the traditions they kept (in the cloister) are priceless, everything is done so beautiful and reverently. I always thought how all these little things must be so pleasing to Him as He is the center of it all and I was so thankful to be part of it.

For the time being though my focus needs to be on living a virtuous life in the world. Then, as Father said, the time to enter Carmel will begin to arrive. So until then I hope to be patient and to be able to stand with Our Sorrowful Mother.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1346769666' post='2478253']
This is very kind, may God reward you.

Yes, I love the JMJ Carmel also and would be thrilled if I was called to one of them. I am familliar with the one in Elysburg, but I'm not called there. Perhaps in the future one of the JMJ foundations I could call home; the life, traditions, and the Tradtional Latin Mass ... it is all so beautiful. The adjustment has been sorrowful. The life in the cloister doesn't compare with the life in the world. In there; He is everything and everything is for Him. The world couldn't care less. You can imagine what its like when feast days come around; the traditions they kept (in the cloister) are priceless, everything is done so beautiful and reverently. I always thought how all these little things must be so pleasing to Him as He is the center of it all and I was so thankful to be part of it.

For the time being though my focus needs to be on living a virtuous life in the world. Then, as Father said, the time to enter Carmel will begin to arrive. So until then I hope to be patient and to be able to stand with Our Sorrowful Mother.
[/quote]

It sounds like, as much as you loved the cloister (understandable to me!), you might be pleasing God just as much by working on being virtuous in the world, since this is so much harder on you.

Your words really reflect why I have this inordinate fear of leaving/discerning out/being sent away from the cloister. It would be literally like coming from Heaven back to earth. Of course, we have to follow God wherever He calls us, but it doesn't mean it is not difficult or painful. At least you have the light of Carmel at the end of this tunnel!

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346787942' post='2478366']
It sounds like, as much as you loved the cloister (understandable to me!), [b]you might be pleasing God just as much by working on being virtuous in the world, since this is so much harder on you.[/b]

Your words really reflect why I have this inordinate fear of leaving/discerning out/being sent away from the cloister. It would be literally like coming from Heaven back to earth. Of course, we have to follow God wherever He calls us, but it doesn't mean it is not difficult or painful. At least you have the light of Carmel at the end of this tunnel!
[/quote]

That is true; I completely agree with you. While I was discerning and then preparing to enter the thoughts were more, "now I am finally entering; all I desire is to give everything to Our Lord." Well, this was certainly with the right intentions, but now I see it was a reflection of my impatience with His timing and also lack of trust. I was so anxious to enter and wanted to as soon as possible; I also didn't have a spiritual director helping me and this was also a problem. So I was finally entering and was indeed going to give everything to Our Lord; but in no way did I realize what "everything" really meant, and I wasn't prepared. I had the view of the "everything" being exterior, and not so much the poverty, chastity, and obedience that one should have in their heart. I wasn't spiritually mature and I needed growth that wasn't going to happen in the cloister, as I had entered too soon and didn't have a strong interior life.

The experience was humbling, and indeed I hope that this serves to only increase humilty in me. Thankfully I am getting the guidance that was needed all along, and I hope to do this right this time .... in His time. Father who is helping me recently had me read "The Golden Arrow: The Autobiography and Revelations of Sister Mary of St. Peter." Well, if only perhaps I had read this before! She had desired so much to enter Carmel, but she had a good priest guiding her, and he would not let her. It would be 5 years until she was permitted to. In that time she had prepared herself under his direction for what was waiting for her in the cloister.

So now, having this experience and not having the door to Carmel open for me at this time, I find that I am becoming stronger and experiencing that spiritual growth that I should have been working on before (or rather should have let Him do the work He was trying to do) but I just rushed myself right along. Father had mentioned that when I had entered Carmel I got altitude sickness from taking that one big step, when I should have been taking a little step at a time and not have pushed the door open to Carmel myself, but that it will come when I'm ready.

I should say also that I now know the importance of having guidance when one is discerning, and that its so important to be open and honest about everything. If not, we won't get the help we need. I had that same thought in the cloister as you have now. I had often said that I would rather die at the enclosure door rather than have to leave it. It happend, and your right that the pain doesn't leave, but it is still picking up that cross and following Him. I've gained a lot of self-knowledge and many virtues that perhaps I wouldn't have acquired any other way because He chose this cross to bring me to this point now. We will only keep our peace if we follow Him.

edit: for spelling.

Edited September 5, 2012 by VeniJesuAmorMi