Discalced Carmelite Nun Communities

[truthfinder]

1 hour ago, graciandelamadrededios said:

 

 

Is she wearing a ring?  Wedding ring, Chiqui?

Gracian - I just watched their video on their website, and it does indeed look like at least some of the professed wear wedding rings. 

[graciandelamadrededios]

Oh? Its probably optional for each sister since its not customary for Carmelite to wear wedding rings.  The visible sign of their solemn perpetual vows is their black veil.  This is the reason why the black veil is only given during final profession.  At least, this is the explanation I got from a Prioress during our interview.

[truthfinder]

1 hour ago, graciandelamadrededios said:

Oh? Its probably optional for each sister since its not customary for Carmelite to wear wedding rings.  The visible sign of their solemn perpetual vows is their black veil.  This is the reason why the black veil is only given during final profession.  At least, this is the explanation I got from a Prioress during our interview.

I believe Terre Haute also wears wedding rings. I'm guessing it's a local peculiarity - possibly with an interesting back story?

[graciandelamadrededios]

13 hours ago, truthfinder said:

I believe Terre Haute also wears wedding rings. I'm guessing it's a local peculiarity - possibly with an interesting back story?

I think so too, and Port Tobacco but I am sure that I did not encounter anything about rings on the OCD custom books, ceremonial or on their manuals published before Vatican II

[Chiquitunga]

On 7/25/2016 at 1:29 PM, graciandelamadrededios said:

The gathered/shirred veils are common among Spanish Nuns since I saw the same technique on the veils of Spanish Augustinian Nuns who founded convents in Manila.  Its probably a cultural thing.  

I wonder, I'm thinking it may really be for practical reasons that Spanish nuns starting sewing their veils like that, to fit the material across and around the face, without having to cut it in a special way, I don't know.

On 7/24/2016 at 7:17 AM, Makarioi said:

Carmelite habits seem to be quite involved! What is the significance of the shirred /gathered veil? 

Actually compared to some of the other cloistered nuns' habits/veils, they are really simple. I'm sure gracian could provide more details examples, but for instances for Poor Clares, Dominicans, Carthusians, they have a few more pieces to the full habit.. (giumpe, coiffe, forehead piece, etc. I don't know all the specifics, but a friend of mine who was a Poor Clare told me a little) Whereas Discalced Carmelites just had/have the toque and day veil most of the time (outer veil for specific times) The shirring/sewing part is basically what keeps those two pieces together. In French Carmels it is just pinned to the top (and on the sides, also Spanish Carmels will use pins on the sides too, anyway ^_^)

p.s. I think the most complicated for cloistered nuns is probably the Visitandine

[Chiquitunga]

was about to edit.. actually I think Carthusian Nuns have it pretty simple as well, Domincans too. The Poor Clares, and this is the PCCs, have a few more parts to the veil, although the habit overall is simple. The PCPAs have a lot more to their veils as well.

[Chiquitunga]

On 7/23/2016 at 6:05 AM, DominicanHeart said:

I think that's the only picture of Dallas Carmel anyone has ever seen

 

On 7/23/2016 at 10:49 PM, Chiquitunga said:

There are a few others here and there. Maybe at some point I'll go find them up

https://irl.solutiosoftware.com/index.php?option=com_civicrm&task=civicrm/profile&Itemid=195&_qf_Search_display=true&qfKey=00dcfb4dcf5e18986f70d3dde530e05f_2248 (super tiny, they just became an IRL affiliate)

http://religiouslife.com/profile-view?id=1445

http://veneremurcernui.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/img_59261.jpeg

last but not least, http://myyearwithgmh.blogspot.com/2012/03/saturday-night-with-carmelites-blog-for.html

I'm really putting off getting to sleep (where's the blush emoticon?) Goodnight!! 

 

[Nunsuch]

If you are interested in another "take" on Carmelite life and spirituality in the post-Vatican II era, you may be interested in this book: 

https://www.amazon.com/Cloister-Community-within-Carmelite-Monastery/dp/0253341841/

[graciandelamadrededios]

On 7/30/2016 at 3:19 AM, Chiquitunga said:

I wonder, I'm thinking it may really be for practical reasons that Spanish nuns starting sewing their veils like that, to fit the material across and around the face, without having to cut it in a special way, I don't know.

Actually compared to some of the other cloistered nuns' habits/veils, they are really simple. I'm sure gracian could provide more details examples, but for instances for Poor Clares, Dominicans, Carthusians, they have a few more pieces to the full habit.. (giumpe, coiffe, forehead piece, etc. I don't know all the specifics, but a friend of mine who was a Poor Clare told me a little) Whereas Discalced Carmelites just had/have the toque and day veil most of the time (outer veil for specific times) The shirring/sewing part is basically what keeps those two pieces together. In French Carmels it is just pinned to the top (and on the sides, also Spanish Carmels will use pins on the sides too, anyway ^_^)

p.s. I think the most complicated for cloistered nuns is probably the Visitandine

Hi Chiqui

I am not sure what you mean by this = I'm sure gracian could provide more details examples

[Chiquitunga]

5 hours ago, graciandelamadrededios said:

Hi Chiqui

I am not sure what you mean by this = I'm sure gracian could provide more details examples

I mean regarding all the pieces other contemplative nuns veils involve. You probably are more familiar with the different terms. Wouldn't you agree that the discalced Carmelite veil with just two pieces, a toque and day veil (besides the larger outer veil worn on certain occasions) is pretty simple compared to other full veils of contemplative religious? I was replying to someone's comment that Carmelite veils are quite involved, regarding the shirring with the Spanish veils. My guess is that this started for a practical reason, a way to sew down the material of the veil without having to cut it in a particular way to fit around the forehead - also to not sew it flat on so there's a bunch of material left on the sides (I have noticed some of the Argentinian Carmels do this though)

another thing I feel like that makes Discalces Carmelite veils pretty simple and overall hassle free is how the toque is mostly covered by/sits underneath the large brown scapular, so it's not like there's too much of a need to keep it totally wrinkle free, etc. one Carmelite explained to me that it originates from an apron a Jewish woman would have worn at the time of Our Lord, which Our Lady wore around the house at Nazareth - and then she gave this to St. Simon Stock of course. It's the yoke of Our Lord, as the ceremonial calls it.

anyway, but yeah, the point I'm trying to get across is the simplicity of the discalced Carmelite veil compared to some of the other contemplative communities, which you may know more details about. it would seem odd for the discalced veil to be complicated/especially involved, which was the opposite of what St. Teresa was going for, getting away from which she experienced at the Incarnation.

[graciandelamadrededios]

To start with, the habit of the Discalced Carmelites and I will also include the footwear, are St. Teresa response/reaction to the elaborate, overly styled, and expensive dresses and veils of the Calced Carmelites.  I agree with you Chiqui.  Note that this only applies to the rich Beatas and not the poor nuns or their servants.  The original garment of the Nuns were made from rough frieze or horse blanket.  I can imagine, how penitential it was.  The Nuns were discalced, but wears hemp sandals or alpargates when its cold, paired with hand made stockings.  The rich beatas might have worn silk stockings and pretty shoes.

The following link shows parts of the Carmelite Habit: http://www.archives-carmel-lisieux.fr/english/carmel/index.php/au-carmel/le-style-de-vie/le-travail/la-roberie/the-carmelite-habit

 

The tiny headcap, "coiffette", to wear under the toque

 

The toque in linen. Slipped on the head, it is kept in place under the chin and behind with pins and is placed between the robe and the scapular (see photos of Thérèse).

The first veil placed on the toque and held in place with pins.

The second veil placed on the smaller one (they removed it for work). There was a third longer veil worn covering all of the head when meeting workers.

 

Carmel originates from the Holy Land, so the information provided to you about the toque makes sense.

Also, I think the day veil which is shirred and is tucked under the scapular resembles a monk's hood.  It could be that it was arranged this way in solidarity with their male counterparts but maintaining the feminine aspects of being a nun.  

 

 

 

 

Also, please forgive me for not understanding clearly what "involved" means.....

You are right, Chiqui, Discalced Carmelite Nun's habit is quite simple compared to other elaborate habit worn before Vatican II.  But by today's standard, where some cloistered and active nuns have chosen to wear the modified habit, the traditional habit seems quite elaborate already.

Edited August 1, 2016 by graciandelamadrededios

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

The toque is the Muslim influence on Spain. 

Oh, Our Lady gave the scapular to the Dominicans about 50 years before St. Simon! It was originally an apron worn by the monks. OSB, Trappist, etc. don't bless their scapular whereas for Dominicans it IS the habit of the order. :-)
As people tease, in the 1200's our Blessed Mother was busy with a lot of sewing! 

[graciandelamadrededios]

Alpargates are a kind of handmade espadrille used by Spanish farmers of the 16th century. The Carmelites of the Teresian reform carried out by Teresa of Avila adopted them and passed on to their foundations abroad.

Sr Aimee thanked her family one day for the gift of raw materials in a letter to her sister Marie: I just received a big bag of hemp sewn and harvested by my dear brother Arsène. I looked at it and handled it with pleasure. This hemp will be used to make the braid that will form the bottom of our alpargates (or shoes) that are not in use in the world, or rather in our France. In the past, in the time of our mother Saint Teresa it was the shoe of the poor in Spain. It was a godsend that happened at the right time. Our good depositary didn’t know where to buy this to give this sister in charge of providing us with shoes this year. [Sr St Vincent de Paul].

Walking with alpargates is difficult on wet floor tile (these squares of baked earth), thus the wearing of wooden sandals (photo) for walking on the cloister tiles during wet weather.

As the alpargates were easily soiled because of their light color, the Carmelites also wore wooden sandals with their alpargates to go in the garden. For the laundry, they had to wear clogs over alpargates because wet alpargates took a long time to dry! Marie Guérin complained of this in a letter to her father (letter of July 3rd, 1898).

 

 

 

 

 

[graciandelamadrededios]

15 hours ago, Sr Mary Catharine OP said:

The toque is the Muslim influence on Spain. 

Oh, Our Lady gave the scapular to the Dominicans about 50 years before St. Simon! It was originally an apron worn by the monks. OSB, Trappist, etc. don't bless their scapular whereas for Dominicans it IS the habit of the order. :-)
As people tease, in the 1200's our Blessed Mother was busy with a lot of sewing! 

Etymology[edit]

The word toque is Breton for "hat". The spelling with the "que" is Middle Breton, and Modern Breton is spelled tok. Old Breton spells the word toc. The word was borrowed into the French language both for the chef's uniform and the knit cap.

The word toque is Arabic "طوق" for "round" and "طاقية" "taqia" for "hat" originally for something "round" that has an opening. The word has been known in English since 1505. It came through the Medieval French toque (15th century), presumably by the way of the Spanish toca"woman's headdress", from Arabic *taqa 'طاقة' for "opening".^[3]

[graciandelamadrededios]

I notices several photos of older nuns wearing white veils on top of their day black veils.  I observed this among Polish/Spanish/Eastern European OCD Nuns....

Any ideas why?