Discalced Carmelite Nun Communities

[Graciela]

Welcome, Shannon!

Sounds like you might live in Pennsylvania.... are you also going to look in to Philadelphia Carmel?

About Loretto Carmel. They are in a lovely mountain setting and have Franciscan friars as chapalins (from the university there in Loretto).

I think their prioress may still be Mother John of the Cross. If so, she has been prioress for at least 15 years, maybe approaching 20. I personally feel like this is not a great thing in a community- it makes me wonder why they do not have other sistes able to share the burden of the role of prioress and whether they are having problems developing sisters who can move in to that role. That's just my opinion/concern and I know that there are plenty of examples of prioresses who have held the office for decades. I would note that more than 6 years as prioress requires a rescript from Rome for each succeeding 3 year term. I think that may indicate that the church does not view as ideal the practice of one nun being the prioress for such long periods of time.

Do others here who know Carmel well have info or opinions about this?

Edited September 21, 2012 by Graciela

[lmsb1231]

Dear Shannon,
Maybe you'd like the Dallas Carmel- they are 1990s, strict enclosure, austere and simple, international community (meaning from different ethnic backgrounds, but it is all English-speaking). The Divine Office is chanted in English. I am not sure about what work they do and how much work they do outdoors, but there must be some outdoor work! Here is a website about them with their contact info http://www.dallascarmelites.com/#!. Feel free to contact me if you'd like to know more, because I visited in May! God bless you in your discernment- i'll pray for you!

Edited September 22, 2012 by lmsb1231

[emmaberry]

[quote name='lmsb1231' timestamp='1348300089' post='2485391']
Dear Shannon,
Maybe you'd like the Dallas Carmel- they are 1990s, strict enclosure, austere and simple, international community (meaning from different ethnic backgrounds, but it is all English-speaking). The Divine Office is chanted in English. I am not sure about what work they do and how much work they do outdoors, but there must be some outdoor work! Here is a website about them with their contact info [url="http://www.dallascarmelites.com/#!."]http://www.dallascarmelites.com/#!.[/url] Feel free to contact me if you'd like to know more, because I visited in May! God bless you in your discernment- i'll pray for you!
[/quote]

Shannon, if you like the Carmelite community lmsb mentioned, please send me a PM as I will be in Dallas soon and plan to attend Mass there. I would be happy to pick up any brochures or pamphlets they have there and send them to you.

Prayers that you find the community for you!

[ACS67]

Question:

Is the scheduled mental prayer hours done in community (In choir) or in private (in the cell, outside, or some place of the nuns choosing)? (I bet the answer is..."it depends on the community..." )

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348531427' post='2486227']
Question:

Is the scheduled mental prayer hours done in community (In choir) or in private (in the cell, outside, or some place of the nuns choosing)? (I bet the answer is..."it depends on the community..." )
[/quote]
Traditionally for Discalced Carmelite Nuns, yes, they are done in choir. All 1990 Carmels do, and most 1991s I believe.. but in some the nuns can to decide to remain in their cell for one or more of the hours, or I have heard outside also.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[Chiquitunga]

Meant to say this earlier in regards to my comments about differences between Spanish and French .. saying that I had heard Spanish Carmels generally have more devotions than the French .. I need to make a distinction here. Most of the Spanish Carmels in the US are from Mexican origin (all really, but I would say Brooklyn is an exception) so thus, I believe there may be sometimes more devotions in Spanish US Carmels because as is known, Mexican culture/faith is very devotional.

Brooklyn is an exception (though refounded from Buffalo) because three of their Sisters were in the Carmel in Toledo, Spain including the Prioress, so many of their customs come from there. They also wear the wool Habit all the time (Dallas does too) and do not have a Summer habit. I have also heard this is a difference between the really Spanish Carmels and Mexican Carmels from a young woman who entered Elysburg, but first visited Brooklyn. She said Elysburg (& Valp.) do not wear the wool Habit year round, as they are more Mexican in custom, whereas Brooklyn does.

Anyway, in the end all of the Carmels develop their own traditions/customs of course. But in general, they are either French or Spanish - and subcategories within that .. Spain/Latin American, etc.

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348092472' post='2484344']
Thanks Chiquitunga! Knowing the difference between the French and Spanish would be a great help. I received the schedule for Des Plaines and Mother did not indicate any devotions in their schedule whatsoever other than the Litany to Our Lady after None. It seems they do not even pray the Rosary in common (Although I know many Benedictines that do not do this as well, Solesmes nuns in Vermont for instance did not do so years ago...they may now however).
[/quote]
I have seen a few Carmelite schedules (including an SSPX Carmel - just to point out that this is not something un-traditional, if that's a word, about Des Plaines) where the Rosary was not prayed in common also .. and not just among the French. Dallas told me they did not have it in their horarium either (though of course they prayed in privately) But after they began the new Divine Office, which is a lot shorter, they added a communal one.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[Chiquitunga]

ACS67 to answer your question again with a quote from the 1990 Constitutions..

[b]199 The nuns are to pay the greatest homage to the Most Holy Eucharist, participating in the celebration of Holy Mass and receiving this most Holy Sacrament in accord with what is prescribed in No. 44 of the present Constitutions. They are to adore Him as the summit and source of their entire consecrated life. They are to celebrate the Divine Office, the two hours of prayer prescribed by the Constitutions, and other exercises of piety before the Blessed Sacrament. They are to visit the Blessed Sacrament frequently, in so far as it is compatible with the monastic life of Carmel.[/b]

Edited September 25, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[ACS67]

Thanks Chiquitunga! That's very helpful!

[inperpetuity]

I spent time as an aspirant in a 1991 Carmel and they permitted postulants to do at least one of the hours of mental prayer in a place of their choosing. The 1990 Carmel I actually entered required postulants to do both hours in the chapel.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Graciela' timestamp='1348270597' post='2485234']
Welcome, Shannon!

Sounds like you might live in Pennsylvania.... are you also going to look in to Philadelphia Carmel?

About Loretto Carmel. They are in a lovely mountain setting and have Franciscan friars as chapalins (from the university there in Loretto).

I think their prioress may still be Mother John of the Cross. If so, she has been prioress for at least 15 years, maybe approaching 20. I personally feel like this is not a great thing in a community- it makes me wonder why they do not have other sistes able to share the burden of the role of prioress and whether they are having problems developing sisters who can move in to that role. That's just my opinion/concern and I know that there are plenty of examples of prioresses who have held the office for decades. I would note that more than 6 years as prioress requires a rescript from Rome for each succeeding 3 year term. I think that may indicate that the church does not view as ideal the practice of one nun being the prioress for such long periods of time.

Do others here who know Carmel well have info or opinions about this?
[/quote]
Hi Graciela! Well, I wouldn't say I know Carmel well (just random details!) but I know of several Carmels that I would consider very good where the Prioress has been the same for 15+ years .. Valparaiso, Buffalo, Alexandria, I am certain there are others. I didn't know that about requiring a rescript from Rome after 6 years, for 3 years at a time .. though I knew there was some limit like that, as I heard in one Carmel that they wanted to elect the same Prioress but weren't granted permission, so they had to elect someone else. So who knows how this is discerned by Rome, but I just know I wouldn't not go to a good Carmel like the ones posted above because of this.

I believe that is very good though that there is a limit and special permission needed to go over it. I think on the one hand, it could be a really stable thing to have the same Mother Prioress for number of years, but depending on the Prioress and community of course, it could be not so good also. I'm glad it's in the hands of the Holy Father to discern whether to grant an extension or not. I know several Carmels where the office of Prioress seems to be switched between two different nuns.

I wonder if the same time limit applies to PCCs? If I remember correctly, they said in Rockford Mother Mary Regina was Abbess for 12 years and that that was the limit (whatever it was, it was the maximum she could be Abbess) Mother Maria Dominica was elected last Fall for a three year term, I believe it is.

Anyway, let us pray always for Superiors! What a job they have!

Edited September 26, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

Praised be Jesus Christ! Now and forever.

I was just doing some research on the new Carmel of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph in Canyon, CA. Well, I didn't find anything new yet but I came across this Facebook page in the search about a woman who was preparing to enter in Valparaiso; she did on July 13th. I think her entrance video was posted somewhere around here, but that is still on the page also. There a few nice pictures too. It seems that they are leaving updates about her on here when they receive a letter from her (she is able to write once a month.) They have one from this month. If your interested to see: [url="http://www.facebook.com/SamanthaGoesToCarmel"]http://www.facebook....thaGoesToCarmel[/url]

Here is her vocation story from the Labourè Society (also to add that they have their new Aspirant Alum up for 2013 on their website): [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YjNir3nOEQ&feature=plcp[/media]

[Chiquitunga]

Praised be Jesus Christ! Thanks for posting that! I posted the FB page in some other thread, and carmelite15 posted the video somewhere too (this was her friend), but I think they both got a bit buried, so thanks for bringing it up again!

Here it is ... reposting bc of the cool (hey that didn't become "razzle dazzle" this time!) links on the new postulant at Brooklyn too

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1344964296' post='2467545']
So wonderful!! Here's the girl who entered Valpariaso that day, [url="https://www.facebook.com/SamanthaGoesToCarmel"]https://www.facebook...thaGoesToCarmel[/url] (you don't have to have an account to see it I'm pretty sure, I can sign into a friend's :j)

I also recently found another entrance on there at Brooklyn [url="http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=411643568879181&set=a.248058405237699.58938.184190628291144&type=1"]here[/url] & [url="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=419949581381913&set=a.248058405237699.58938.184190628291144&type=1&permPage=1"]here[/url]
[/quote]

Edited September 30, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[emmaberry101]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1348646138' post='2486860']
Hi Graciela! Well, I wouldn't say I know Carmel well (just random details!) but I know of several Carmels that I would consider very good where the Prioress has been the same for 15+ years .. Valparaiso, Buffalo, Alexandria, I am certain there are others. I didn't know that about requiring a rescript from Rome after 6 years, for 3 years at a time .. though I knew there was some limit like that, as I heard in one Carmel that they wanted to elect the same Prioress but weren't granted permission, so they had to elect someone else. So who knows how this is discerned by Rome, but I just know I wouldn't not go to a good Carmel like the ones posted above because of this.

I believe that is very good though that there is a limit and special permission needed to go over it. I think on the one hand, it could be a really stable thing to have the same Mother Prioress for number of years, but depending on the Prioress and community of course, it could be not so good also. I'm glad it's in the hands of the Holy Father to discern whether to grant an extension or not. I know several Carmels where the office of Prioress seems to be switched between two different nuns.

I wonder if the same time limit applies to PCCs? If I remember correctly, they said in Rockford Mother Mary Regina was Abbess for 12 years and that that was the limit (whatever it was, it was the maximum she could be Abbess) Mother Maria Dominica was elected last Fall for a three year term, I believe it is.

Anyway, let us pray always for Superiors! What a job they have!
[/quote]

I was under the impression, from random statements I've read pieced together, that Abbesses often hold their office until they can no longer do so, typically because of age. This could have been an exceptional case in the case of Mother Francis though, for I think we can all agree that she was an exceptional woman.

From the Roswell PCC site:
"In 2002, Mother was honored with the [i]Pro Fidelitate et Virtute[/i] Award by the Institute on Religious Life for her contributions to consecrated life through her books, poetry, and her life of contemplative prayer. [b]In 2004 she celebrated her fortieth anniversary as abbess of the Roswell community, [/b]and the sixtieth anniversary of her religious Profession. In our October 2005 elections, Mother Mary Francis handed on the service of abbess to her successor, Mother Mary Angela, and received the honorary title of “Mother Emerita” from our bishop, in recognition of her outstanding dedication to God and to the service of her sisters, to whom she would always remain “Mother.”"

The 'Mother Emerita' honor is what makes me think this is an unusual case.

From the holy Rule:


[size=4]CHAPTER FOUR THE ELECTION AND OFFICE OF THE ABBESS; THE CHAPTER AND THE OFFICIALS AND THE DISCREETS[/size]

[size=4]The sisters are bound to observe the canonical form in the election of the Abbess. They should quickly arrange to have the Minister General or the Minister Provincial of the Order of Friars Minor present. Let him dispose them, through the Word of God, to perfect harmony and the common good in the election that is to be held. No one should be elected who is not professed. And if a non-professed is elected or somehow given them, she should not be obeyed unless she first professes our form of poverty.[/size]
[b][size=4]At her death the election of another Abbess shall take place. If at any time it should appear to the entire body of sisters that she is not competent for their service and com- mon welfare, the sisters are bound as quickly as possible to elect another as Abbess and mother according to the form described above.[/size][/b]
[size=4]Whoever is elected should reflect upon the kind of burden she has undertaken and to Whom she must render an account of the flock committed to her (cf. Matthew 12:36). She should strive as well to preside over the others more by her virtues and holy behavior than by her office, so that, moved by her example, the sisters may obey her more out of love than out of fear. Let her avoid particular friendships, lest by loving some more than others she cause scandal among all. Let her console those who are afflicted. Let her also be the last refuge for those who are troubled, lest the sickness of despair overcome the weak should they fail to find in her the remedies for health.[/size]
[size=4]Let her preserve common life in everything, especially in whatever pertains to the church, the dormitory, the refectory, infirmary, and clothing. Let her Vicaress be bound to serve in the same way. The Abbess is bound to call her sisters together at least once a week in the Chapter, where both she and her sisters should humbly confess their common and public offenses and negligences. Let her consult with all her sisters there concerning whatever pertains to the welfare and good of the monastery, for the Lord frequently reveals what is best to the least [among us].[/size]
[size=4]Let no heavy debt be incurred except with the common consent of the sisters and by reason of manifest necessity, and let this be done by the procurator. Let the Abbess and her sisters, however, be careful that nothing is deposited in the monastery for safe- keeping; for such practices often give rise to troubles and scandals.[/size]
[size=4]Let all who hold offices in the monastery be chosen by the common consent of all the sisters to preserve the unity of mutual love and peace. Let at least eight sisters be elected from the more discerning ones in the same way, whose counsel the Abbess should be always bound to use in those matters which our form of life requires. Moreover, the sisters can and should, if it seems useful and expedient, remove the officials and discreets and elect others in their place.[/size]

[Chiquitunga]

Thanks for posting that, Emma! That is very interesting and informative. Well, I wonder if there is some way individual monasteries can have different rules on this. I just know at Rockford it was mentioned a couple times that the former Abbess had served the maximum amount of time/terms in a row (it was either 12 or 18 years, I cannot remember) as was possible for them, so they had to elect a new one. But the new Abbess said jokingly, but maybe half serious I think, that after her term was up, the former Abbess could have the job back

But that is really good to know about Mother Mary Francis serving for 40 years, wow! .. because this also means the Church allows this (though obviously these are two different Orders, and St. Clare's Rule gives specifics on this) which then, for lack of better wording, makes those Carmels with Prioresses in Office for 15+ years not look so unusual. I don't think it's so unusual really. I think the longest I have heard of is Valparaiso, where the Prioress has been the same since 1989 I am pretty sure.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[Chiquitunga]

I just checked the Constitutions. I says at the beginning that the same Prioress may be re-elected, but doesn't give a limit. Then later it gives the requirements on her age (35 and 5 years since Solemn Profession) and that she is to be elected for a three year term in accordance with Canons 623 - 624 and what it says at the beginning of the Constitutions (which is that she may be re-elected, but again no specifics) Then it says "Beginning with the third election, at least two-thirds of the votes are required."

Here are those Canons ..

[b]Can. 623 In order for members to be appointed or elected validly to the function of superior, a suitable time is required after perpetual or definitive profession, to be determined by proper law, or if it concerns major superiors, by the constitutions.[/b]

[b]Can. 624 §1. Superiors are to be constituted for a certain and appropriate period of time according to the nature and need of the institute, unless the constitutions determine otherwise for the supreme moderator and for superiors of an autonomous house.[/b]

[b]§2. Proper law is to provide suitable norms so that superiors, constituted for a definite time, do not remain too long in offices of governance without interruption.[/b]

So it just says "too long" but no specifics there. I would conclude from this that in the end, each monastery is so autonomous and unique that what is best for one may be totally different for another (and again, St. Clare's rule has specifics on this, so that could have been why there was an exception made at Roswell, if there was an exception at all) The hierarchy of the Church seems to be very much involved in this, and of course they have the Visitations, which is a whole other subject.

Here's a neat blog post on the last elections that took place at Iron Mountain, [url="http://caritasveritas.blogspot.com/2011/07/election-of-prioress-at-holy-cross.html"]http://caritasverita...holy-cross.html[/url]

Edited September 30, 2012 by Chiquitunga