Discalced Carmelite Nun Communities

[lmsb1231]

Thank you everyone for the wonderful answers!! :] God bless

[Chiquitunga]

ACS67, everything you say there is correct about additional devotions and Carmel. I will come back to address that later as I have to go. But generally, I have heard this is part of some of the differences between French and Spanish Carmel [i]in general [/i]Very much in general there .. because I know Dallas, a very Spanish Carmel, is not big on adding devotions either, while Wichita is very devotional (<-- most of their Sisters are Mexican) I know Buffalo, Brooklyn & Alexandria all have the option of coming to choir to pray the Divine Mercy chaplet in community, but again, it's [i]totally optional[/i], it is during work time. I think that's a good balance.

They do not do this in the JMJ Carmels, as I heard from someone who talked to the Prioress there (about the DM chaplet) that they do not want to impose devotions on the nuns but they can pray it privately (also she said because their Office is so long, which it is!).. this is how Iron Mt. is too, with devotions, and they are also Spanish. Anyway, I will come back later to add more, although I've probably said a good amount already :j But yes, generally French Carmels emphasize devotions and the external less than Spanish Carmels .. also I have heard that generally French Carmels emphasize solitude a bit more too.

p.s. I know I promised at one point in this thread or another to talk about some of the differences in French and Spanish Carmels, so here's a start

Edited September 19, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[ACS67]

Thanks Chiquitunga! Knowing the difference between the French and Spanish would be a great help. I received the schedule for Des Plaines and Mother did not indicate any devotions in their schedule whatsoever other than the Litany to Our Lady after None. It seems they do not even pray the Rosary in common (Although I know many Benedictines that do not do this as well, Solesmes nuns in Vermont for instance did not do so years ago...they may now however).

Edited September 19, 2012 by ACS67

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1348083482' post='2484262']
[b]Veni, is that something I wrote?[/b] (not the prayer from Blessed Elizabeth but the little sentence above) Just wondering .. I could look it up myself :j because it's a combination of two things I have heard from two different Prioresses. But actually there are some Carmels that have a little more adoration now .. as is known [url="http://mtcarmel.stormpages.com/page4.html"]St. Louis[/url] (1991) but also the 1990 one in Wichita, KS [url="http://carmelofwichita.com/"]http://carmelofwichita.com/[/url] which is a new Carmel (actually not that new, but they have a long story of how they were founded & they are building a new monastery) They have a lot more adoration than most Carmels, all day and night every Thursday and additional time on Sundays. I did hear from a Carmel once that in Blessed Elizabeth's Carmel they had exposition every Sunday also .. not sure how long though. But anyway, I actually [i]just [/i]recently asked a priest who knows Carmel very well this exact question about adoration! I will look at the email again and see what I can post here, but basically he said mostly what has already been said.. how Carmelite prayer is especially interior, and not to be dependent on the external .. though again, all Carmels [i]do[/i] have some adoration at least, some more.
[/quote]


Yes! That was from you.

Here is the link to the past thread that I found it on. It was called "Difference Between Carmelite And Poor Clare Convents."

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/112929-difference-between-carmelite-and-poor-clare-convents/"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/112929-difference-between-carmelite-and-poor-clare-convents/[/url]

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1348079458' post='2484235']
Thank-you for posting this. I am only just starting to get to know Mary (and the process has been VERY slow and difficult at times).

As I've started to "get to know" Mary, it's been disappointing just how little we know about her--although the few things we do know are very "telling." I have all kinds of questions to ask her should I meet her someday.

But, perhaps it's just as well that we know so little about Mary so that we don't lose the primary focus, which is Jesus. And, it makes what little we DO know about Mary even more important.
[/quote]

Thats really beautiful, IgnatiusofLoyola. God reward you for sharing.

I won't get into my whole conversion story but it did happen that I got to know more about Our Blessed Mother before I got to know Jesus. As I grew in my faith, and learning about her motherly role I saw that all along it was her that was leading me to know and love Jesus. She has a very special place in my heart.

I like how you said that "it's just as well that we know so little about Mary so that we don't lose the primary focus, which is Jesus." In her great humility, she wouldn't want it any other way! Everything she has done and said in her life, through the saints and still now was and is for us. She only wants what Jesus wants; she wants us to know and love Him.

Edited September 19, 2012 by VeniJesuAmorMi

[Graciela]

I would like to develop a list of Discalced Carmelite Monasteries in the US and Canada that have a 6 moth to 1 year postulancy and a one year novitiate. The majority seem to have 1 year postulancy and 2 years of novitiate before first profession.

Dallas is one that seems to have the 1 year novitiate, but I am unsure of their postulancy.

Perhaps also Des Plaines and the one in Armstrong, B.C. ?

Others, please? Is this a 1990 vs 1991 constitutions difference?

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='Graciela' timestamp='1348182518' post='2484766']
I would like to develop a list of Discalced Carmelite Monasteries in the US and Canada that have a 6 moth to 1 year postulancy and a one year novitiate. The majority seem to have 1 year postulancy and 2 years of novitiate before first profession.

Dallas is one that seems to have the 1 year novitiate, but I am unsure of their postulancy.

Perhaps also Des Plaines and the one in Armstrong, B.C. ?

Others, please? Is this a 1990 vs 1991 constitutions difference?
[/quote]

I only know of three communities. Maybe Chiquitunga has information about this?

The Valparaiso Carmel and their foundation in Elysburg (now in Canyon, CA also) have 6 months - 1 year postulancy, 1 year of canonical novitiate, and 3 years of first vows, then one year of being a gray veil, then they make solemn vows. I wonder how many other communities also have the one year of being a grey veil? Its when after the 3 years of first vows the Sister leaves the novitiate and joins the solemn professed Sisters for one year as a preparation for solemn vows. ( Someone who hasn't heard about this may think they actually receive a grey colored veil, but they just call it this because she's no longer a white veil in the novitiate (though she still keeps her white veil when she leaves) but she doesn't have a black veil yet either (until her solemn profession); I guess this is why they call it being a grey veil.)

[truthfinder]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348192544' post='2484878']
I only know of three communities. Maybe Chiquitunga has information about this?

The Valparaiso Carmel and their foundation in Elysburg (now in Canyon, CA also) have 6 months - 1 year postulancy, 1 year of canonical novitiate, and 3 years of first vows, then one year of being a gray veil, then they make solemn vows. I wonder how many other communities also have the one year of being a grey veil? Its when after the 3 years of first vows the Sister leaves the novitiate and joins the solemn professed Sisters for one year as a preparation for solemn vows. ( Someone who hasn't heard about this may think they actually receive a grey colored veil, but they just call it this because she's no longer a white veil in the novitiate (though she still keeps her white veil when she leaves) but she doesn't have a black veil yet either (until her solemn profession); I guess this is why they call it being a grey veil.)
[/quote]
Actually, the Dominican nuns of Summit have this practice. Though they actually have black veils because they receive them at first vows. Sr. MC would be able to give more details.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348013718' post='2483955']
Alright, just one more post here .... for today anyway.

This website is new to me, has anyone else seen it? Its the website for the Carmelite Monastery of The Holy Cross in Iron Mountain Michigan. It has a lot of pictures and great slideshows. I wonder if its new? Or maybe I just missed it. They seem to be doing well with vocations. The last I heard is that they had 22 Sisters; two are externs.

[url="http://www.holycrosscarmel.com/"]http://www.holycrosscarmel.com/[/url]
[/quote]

Veni, yes it is relatively new Here's MMs thread about it from last year, [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/116205-carmel-of-the-holy-cross-in-iron-mountain-mi/"]http://www.phatmass....on-mountain-mi/[/url]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348094455' post='2484368']
Yes! That was from you.

Here is the link to the past thread that I found it on. It was called "Difference Between Carmelite And Poor Clare Convents."

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/112929-difference-between-carmelite-and-poor-clare-convents/"]http://www.phatmass....clare-convents/[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks! when I first saw it I thought for a second it was someone else and that perhaps they had visited and talked with the same Prioress as me

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348095069' post='2484372']I won't get into my whole conversion story but it did happen that I got to know more about Our Blessed Mother before I got to know Jesus. As I grew in my faith, and learning about her motherly role I saw that all along it was her that was leading me to know and love Jesus. She has a very special place in my heart.[/quote]
Same story here with getting to know Our Lady first before Jesus.. It's so beautiful how she leads us to Him

Edited September 21, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348192544' post='2484878']
I only know of three communities. Maybe Chiquitunga has information about this?

The Valparaiso Carmel and their foundation in Elysburg (now in Canyon, CA also) have 6 months - 1 year postulancy, 1 year of canonical novitiate, and 3 years of first vows, then one year of being a gray veil, then they make solemn vows. I wonder how many other communities also have the one year of being a grey veil? Its when after the 3 years of first vows the Sister leaves the novitiate and joins the solemn professed Sisters for one year as a preparation for solemn vows. ( Someone who hasn't heard about this may think they actually receive a grey colored veil, but they just call it this because she's no longer a white veil in the novitiate (though she still keeps her white veil when she leaves) but she doesn't have a black veil yet either (until her solemn profession); I guess this is why they call it being a grey veil.)
[/quote]

Veni, that is interesting .. I have never heard the term "grey veil" (it's a nice term though, makes sense )before but I have heard of several Carmels (I kind of assumed it was all of them) where the First Professed spend the [u]first two years in the novitiate[/u] and then the [u]last year (3rd) they are with the Solemn Professed[/u]. So generally it could be as soon as [b]4 1/2[/b] years from the time you enter until Solemn Profession, if you have a Carmel with a 6 month postulancy and one year novitiate. I know several nuns where this is exactly how it went for them .. in Buffalo, Brooklyn, Dallas, Alexandria & Littleton .. also Des Plaines.

I thought it was this way in Valparaiso too .. so they always spend [b][u]4 years in temporary vows then?[/u][/b] If so then the fastest you can get through there (funny wording there I know :j) is[b] 5 1/2 years[/b] ..

But actually I know someone who [b]entered Valparaiso August 5, 2007 and made her Solemn Profession June 16, 2012[/b] (Feast of the IHM, new rite feast actually, though it was an EF Mass I am sure, definitely was that day, not July) That's a [u]little less than 5 years.[/u] Hmm... well but also, I have heard of temporary vows lasting longer according to each particular nun .. but then ... the First Profession is made for three years specifically (it's written in the Constitutions that way) ... would they renew it for another year? I'm not sure how this works .. which brings up another question .. does the Solemn Profession have to be exactly after three years? because then technically the Sister's vows are expired right? Sorry I'm making things more complicated here!!

To throw in another situation, I know a nun in Alexandria Carmel who made her First Profession October 2, 2009 (Feast of the Guardian Angels) and is now making her Solemn Profession September 29, 2012 (Feast of the Archangels) So the First Vows were [i]technically[/i] less than three years

p.s. just bolded and underlined things with the hope that this post won't be too hard to reply to

[quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1348202436' post='2484952']
Actually, the Dominican nuns of Summit have this practice. Though they actually have black veils because they receive them at first vows. Sr. MC would be able to give more details.
[/quote]

maybe she can help with my questions here too! so then in Summit the First Professed are 3 years in the novitiate and 1 year with the Solemns? or is it how I have seen it in many Carmels .. during the time of their three years in temporary vows, the [u]first two years are in the novitiate and the third is with the Solemn Professed?[/u]

Edited September 21, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[truthfinder]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1348205851' post='2484968']
maybe she can help with my questions here too! so then in Summit the First Professed are 3 years in the novitiate and 1 year with the Solemns? or is it how I have seen it in many Carmels .. during the time of their three years in temporary vows, the [u]first two years are in the novitiate and the third is with the Solemn Professed?[/u]
[/quote]
I can't remember how long their novitiate last, but as for the length of temporary profession spent in the novitiate area, yes, it's the first two years and then a year with the Solemn professed
Here's a link to their blog where this happened recently: [url="http://nunsopsummit.org/archives/3062"]http://nunsopsummit.org/archives/3062[/url]

[shannon]

Hello. I have been reading some of the posts here, and just registered.
I am discerneing a vocation to Carmel.
I have visited Erie, PA and Latrobe, PA and will be going to Loretto, PA this weekend.
I am seeking a Carmel that does do the office in English, so those that do the Latin are out of my search.
I would like the strict enclosure, and I do like simplicity and austerity and I do like work but particular outside work and physcial work and the outdoors. (or at least i believe coming from a health ecucation background it is important if all work is sit work there is time for at least a 20 min walk ( in erie the novices I am told are required to walk for 20 minutes each day). I am 33 years old.
I do not know how Loretto will go, but does any one have any other suggestions about carmels to look at? 1990 or 1991 I dont think it matters, but not where they have become relaxed--becasue the devil enters in small things--and it seems when you begin to give in one thing it contineus to mainfest it self in other things.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='shannon' timestamp='1348239543' post='2485027']
Hello. I have been reading some of the posts here, and just registered.
I am discerneing a vocation to Carmel.
I have visited Erie, PA and Latrobe, PA and will be going to Loretto, PA this weekend.
I am seeking a Carmel that does do the office in English, so those that do the Latin are out of my search.
I would like the strict enclosure, and I do like simplicity and austerity and I do like work but particular outside work and physcial work and the outdoors. (or at least i believe coming from a health ecucation background it is important if all work is sit work there is time for at least a 20 min walk ( in erie the novices I am told are required to walk for 20 minutes each day). I am 33 years old.
I do not know how Loretto will go, but does any one have any other suggestions about carmels to look at? 1990 or 1991 I dont think it matters, but not where they have become relaxed--becasue the devil enters in small things--and it seems when you begin to give in one thing it contineus to mainfest it self in other things.
[/quote]

I would recommend the [url="http://www.holynamecarmel.org/"]Carmel in Denmark, WI[/url]. I was in contact by letters with the Prioress, Mother Mary Elizabeth. They are a beautiful order, but I realized soon after that I was not called to Carmel so I never visited.

[AnneLine]

Welcome, Shannon, glad to have you among us. You might want to start a 'welcome' thread in either VS or the Open Mike just so people can greet you, and so you can get ideas from people who might not be following this thread...

A couple of thoughts on the temp professed thing (above); I am pretty certain this works the same way as it does with my secular order (and I am familiar with a bunch of solid 1991 Carmels, and actually attended the reception of the habit of Mother Agnes of Valpariso/Canyon when she was at Cristo Rey 40 some odd years ago....)

There are usually guidelines that can be adapted for each sister. Most Carmels have 6 mos to 1 year for postulants, 1 or 2 year for novitiate (one year is required by canon law, the 2nd is optional under canon law [I believe] but many communities require it), and then at least 3 years under temporary vows (I'm not sure if that is required by canon law at this point or is just a constitutional thing.).

In our secular order, the ORDER requires (and it is in our Constitutions) a period of 'getting to know you' before beginning Aspirancy (which is equivalent to postulancy), at LEAST 1 year as an Aspirant, at LEAST 2 years as a Novice, and at LEAST 3 years under temporary promises before final promises can even be considered. AND there are guidelines if either the community or the individual feels they need more time at each step of the proceeding. If someone is under temporary promises and needs more time, the person renews the promise privately in the presence of a priest as the way of extending the formation period.

The way we are encouraged to look at it (and I bet the nuns would say the same thing) is that the community and the individual need to be sure at each step that it is in God's timing. So.... better to take the extra time and do it right. So we really encourage our people in formation to NOT think of it as 'and so now in 3 years I will make my promises' but rather as 'three years from now will be the first time I would be eligible to make promises, but we will see what God wants....).

I think almost every community (cloistered or active) has some provision for integrating the novices and/or temporarily professed into the next stage. Otherwise, the person professes and then immediately is dropped into a new role with a bunch of new people they have never met! THAT wouldn't make sense.... so for example, we have an informal policy that during the last year of temp promises, sometimes they join the finally professed members for their formation class, they are encouraged to mingle more with the finally professed members during meals and fellowship periods, and we have them start doing various projects with them, too. That way the individual preparing to profess can really make a good discernment if this is the community they want to spend their lives with (and yes, even as seculars, we will spend a lot of our time with these people... you need to be able to be happy in this community.)

Edited September 21, 2012 by AnneLine

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Graciela' timestamp='1348182518' post='2484766']
I would like to develop a list of Discalced Carmelite Monasteries in the US and Canada that have a 6 moth to 1 year postulancy and a one year novitiate. The majority seem to have 1 year postulancy and 2 years of novitiate before first profession.

Dallas is one that seems to have the 1 year novitiate, but I am unsure of their postulancy.

Perhaps also Des Plaines and the one in Armstrong, B.C. ?

Others, please? Is this a 1990 vs 1991 constitutions difference?
[/quote]
Just linking this thread here - [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/124118-carmels-with-6-12-month-postulancy-1-year-novitiate/"]http://www.phatmass....year-novitiate/[/url]

Linking this thread too on First Vows and renewing them (otherwise the conversation in this thread might get too hard to follow ) - [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/124130-renewing-temporary-vows-question-sr-mary-catharine-help/"]http://www.phatmass....catharine-help/[/url]

Edited September 21, 2012 by Chiquitunga