Would You Be A Jew, If Not Christian?

[4588686]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1337163232' post='2431169']
So back to your original statement. What do you mean by there is no pay off?
[/quote]

I was joking. I was making a joking reference to pascal's wager. Being Jewish has no payoff since Judaism is much more generous in who outside of Judaism can get into heaven than either Christianity or Islam.


[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1337163003' post='2431168']
for hasan
[/quote]

What have I said here that you can possibly take exception to?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337207706' post='2431414']

What have I said here that you can possibly take exception to?
[/quote]
That Jesus doesn't have the heart to love those outside his Church could be a reason. Christianity is more compassionate and forgiving than Judaism. Jesus even stops the stoning of people with his wisdom. But since you were joking you're forgiven! BTW the ones on the inside often don't do all that well either, but Jesus still loves them. It's the only hope I've got.

[dairygirl4u2c]

perhaps i should have just asked "if you were around before Jesus existed" as folks are jumping too much on the idea that i might be proposing Jesus not existing at all, etc.
i want the core of the poll, debate, to be about why we wouldn't abide by Jewish laws, such as stoning etc.

Edited May 17, 2012 by dairygirl4u2c

[4588686]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1337211909' post='2431461']
That Jesus doesn't have the heart to love those outside his Church could be a reason. Christianity is more compassionate and forgiving than Judaism. Jesus even stops the stoning of people with his wisdom. But since you were joking you're forgiven! BTW the ones on the inside often don't do all that well either, but Jesus still loves them. It's the only hope I've got.
[/quote]

I'm referring to Councilar statements. As late as the council of Florence the Church explicitly prohibited the possibility of individuals outside the Church attaining salvation. That's started to change but the criteria are still pretty strict.

[dairygirl4u2c]

in adition to what hassan mentioned, also fundamentalist christianity, and other orhthodox christian types, were, are, against salvation of none christians.

the bible, i'd argue, doesn't even say that that's true... and i'd eagerly debate any one who said otherwise.

but that's what's been believed.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337213748' post='2431491']
I'm referring to Councilar statements. As late as the council of Florence the Church explicitly prohibited the possibility of individuals outside the Church attaining salvation. That's started to change but the criteria are still pretty strict.
[/quote]

wrong again. you just don;t understand the wording

read the Vat2 docs. It clarifies in modern language what is meant by 'outside the Church, there is no salvation'. It was correct back then and is correct now. Does it mean no non-Catholics can go to heaven? no. never did. read...study...then speak

[4588686]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1337231852' post='2431604']
wrong again. you just don;t understand the wording

read the Vat2 docs. It clarifies in modern language what is meant by 'outside the Church, there is no salvation'. It was correct back then and is correct now. Does it mean no non-Catholics can go to heaven? no. never did. read...study...then speak
[/quote]


I am wrong in saying that currently the Church says, based on the most reasonable reading of the text, that while non-Catholics can go to heaven it is under very limited conditions?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337232623' post='2431609']
I am wrong in saying that currently the Church says, based on the most reasonable reading of the text, that while non-Catholics can go to heaven it is under very limited conditions?
[/quote]
Don't argue. This seems to be exceptional news for you!

[Papist]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337232623' post='2431609']
I am wrong in saying that currently the Church says, based on the most reasonable reading of the text, that while non-Catholics can go to heaven it is under very limited conditions?
[/quote]

Non-Christians, non-Catholics can go to heaven[as the Church teaches], but the proper path to get there is inside Christ's Church. Christ founded the Church for this purpose.

[quote]Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. -- Lumen Gentium 14[/quote]

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337232623' post='2431609']
I am wrong in saying that currently the Church says, based on the most reasonable reading of the text, that while non-Catholics can go to heaven it is under very limited conditions?
[/quote]

you are wrong to say 'currently'. the Church has always taught this, albeit not in language that is clear in the 21st century. you are also wrong to infer 'limited conditions'. those conditions are under the grace and auspices of God, who is not limited in any way.

read the actual docs. start with CCC 846-848. Then read Lumen Gentium 16

Edited May 17, 2012 by Groo the Wanderer

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337213748' post='2431491']
I'm referring to Councilar statements. As late as the council of Florence the Church explicitly prohibited the possibility of individuals outside the Church attaining salvation. That's started to change but the criteria are still pretty strict.
[/quote]
These days when I feel something in my heart I look for evidence in the form of official Church documents before posting anything. I'm getting shifty in my old age! Gro and Pap have already quoted what I was aspiring too, so no need for me to add more. The only criteria is to have Jesus in your heart which in a sense is pretty strict, but I don't think in the sense that you inferred. I think someone, Fr Barron, quoted one of the saints as stating that most people are doomed. Certainly where I live (a greatly secular country) I would say that he may well be correct. But many of the ones (agnostic) I know have Jesus in their heart, but they just don't know it! And there are many Catholics which I have some great concern for. If I was a betting man and I was taking bets on who would make eternal life, I wouldn't alter the odds by an astronomical amount for a Catholic. In fact they have a disadvantage because they should know better.

[Mercy me]

Nothing would change, I would be a Jew.