How Can A Faithful Catholic Be A Democrat?

[qfnol31]

In general, those who attend church regularly tend to be more conservative. Same goes for those with more private devotions.

[Socrates]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1337405005' post='2432548']
While in general I agree with you, Catholics have a bit of leeway to disagree on the death penalty. As Cardinal Wuerl says, it is not an intrinsically evil act.

The implication of this teaching is that there might be a time when the death penalty in America becomes necessary (even if it be only one case), so that abolishing the death penalty entirely might not be the best choice, or at the very least abolishing the death penalty is not the only Catholic option. This possibility means that Catholics can work to end the death penalty through legislation, or they can work to lower the instances of the death penalty through other means.

On the other hand, Catholics have an obligation to end abortion outright. Catholics have to lower the number of abortions through legislation or through legislation and other means. Working to end it through other means isn't realistic and isn't appropriate for how awful abortion is. As I posted above, abortion is much much graver and much much more widespread than the use of the death penalty.

As an aside, the Church has said that the death penalty should be limited (so that it is pretty much never used), but it is as a witness to the sacredness of life and to give a person the fullest chance to repent. Its criteria do not necessarily preclude justified use in the United States.
[/quote]
While this issue has already been gone over [i]ad nauseum[/i] in these threads, the only prisons from which nobody (to my knowledge) has escaped are Super Max prisons, and it would simply not be feasible (or humane) to put every single murderous criminal in a Super Max. Super Max's are problematic in other ways also, involving extreme conditions of isolation which frequently lead to or exacerbate insanity, and violent criminals are regularly shuffled in and out of these facilities, leading to more problems. (Anomaly posted a good article on this once). Whether or not execution is necessary to protect the public is a matter of prudential judgment, and our current Holy Father has explicitly stated that there is a "legitimate diversity of opinion" among Catholics on this topic.

In any case, trying to put the death penalty on the same level morally as abortion is wrong.

[Socrates]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1337469452' post='2432755']
In general, those who attend church regularly tend to be more conservative. Same goes for those with more private devotions.
[/quote]
My point put more succinctly.

Also, I don't think the majority of those Catholics who vote for Obama or similar pols are really doing so with any real serious thought to Church teachings of any sort.

[qfnol31]

I doubt you'll find any argument from me. My point was that the Church's stance against the death penalty isn't what most people claim and that its subsumed under a broader goal.

Abortion is fought as being intrinsically evil and as such requires much more effort and attention on our part.

[Jesus_lol]

my question is, how can a faithful catholic be a Republican?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1337486206' post='2432848']
my question is, how can a faithful catholic be a Republican?
[/quote]

Much easier I suppose than being a Democrat

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1337486206' post='2432848']
my question is, how can a faithful catholic be a Republican?
[/quote]



ya didnt even bother to read the thread before ya opened yer yap didja? well, didja punk?

[Jesus_lol]

i read the OP and some of the rest, then got bored and jumped the gun.

you said "thread could probably be made about the republicans in the future" but lets be honest, it wont be.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1337469738' post='2432756']
While this issue has already been gone over [i]ad nauseum[/i] in these threads, the only prisons from which nobody (to my knowledge) has escaped are Super Max prisons, and it would simply not be feasible (or humane) to put every single murderous criminal in a Super Max. Super Max's are problematic in other ways also, involving extreme conditions of isolation which frequently lead to or exacerbate insanity, and violent criminals are regularly shuffled in and out of these facilities, leading to more problems.[/quote]

so are you saying its more humane to murder someone than put them in super max prisons?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1337493856' post='2432889']
i read the OP and some of the rest, then got bored and jumped the gun.

you said "thread could probably be made about the republicans in the future" but lets be honest, it wont be.
[/quote]
Cause no one ever, ever bi[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]tc[/font]hes about Republicans or conservatives on these boards ever. Nope, that just [i]never[/i] happens.

If you really think it's so compelling to have such a thread, nothing, as far as I know, is preventing you from starting one.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337499357' post='2432901']
so are you saying its more humane to murder someone than put them in super max prisons?
[/quote]
Firstly, there is a difference between the state lawfully putting a criminal to death and murder. The Church has always made this distinction, even if you refuse to.

And I do think it can be argued that life under the extreme conditions of a Super Max prison can be a more cruel punishment than execution. My point is that throwing every single violent murderous criminal in a Super Max is not the simple easy magic-bullet solution that many people here seem to think it is. It is simply not feasible to build and maintain enough Super Maxes to hold all murderous criminals, and there are currently not enough to keep up with demand. Extremely violent and dangerous criminals are regularly shuffled in and out of Super Maxes and mental health facilities, which, imo, does not not ensure the safety of the public.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1337493856' post='2432889']
i read the OP and some of the rest, then got bored and jumped the gun.

you said "thread could probably be made about the republicans in the future" but lets be honest, it wont be.
[/quote]

not THIS thread....another thread

*grumble* buttknuckle hijackers *grumble*

[havok579257]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1337552208' post='2433052']
Firstly, there is a difference between the state lawfully putting a criminal to death and murder. The Church has always made this distinction, even if you refuse to.

And I do think it can be argued that life under the extreme conditions of a Super Max prison can be a more cruel punishment than execution. My point is that throwing every single violent murderous criminal in a Super Max is not the simple easy magic-bullet solution that many people here seem to think it is. It is simply not feasible to build and maintain enough Super Maxes to hold all murderous criminals, and there are currently not enough to keep up with demand. Extremely violent and dangerous criminals are regularly shuffled in and out of Super Maxes and mental health facilities, which, imo, does not not ensure the safety of the public.
[/quote]

the state can use the death penalty morally according to the church. although they do not exclusivly use it morally which is my point. i would 'tbe on here complaining about it if the state used the death penalty accordingto the way the church says is moral to use it. although we both know the state does not use the death penalty according to what the church deems as moral.

i will never be able to see the arguement that murder/execution is better for the person than super max prisons. as soon as they are executed they have no more hope of salvation. if they are alive the hope is always there. the possibility is there to turn toward God and receive salvation.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1337552208' post='2433052']
Firstly, there is a difference between the state lawfully putting a criminal to death and murder. The Church has always made this distinction, even if you refuse to.

And I do think it can be argued that life under the extreme conditions of a Super Max prison can be a more cruel punishment than execution. My point is that throwing every single violent murderous criminal in a Super Max is not the simple easy magic-bullet solution that many people here seem to think it is. It is simply not feasible to build and maintain enough Super Maxes to hold all murderous criminals, and there are currently not enough to keep up with demand. Extremely violent and dangerous criminals are regularly shuffled in and out of Super Maxes and mental health facilities, which, imo, does not not ensure the safety of the public.
[/quote]

this sounds like finding excuses to justify preexisting conditions, if i ever saw it.
murderous criminals are not super common... at least the kind we have to have super max prisons etc. we have tons of prisons. we shouldn't think we should solve our prison overpopulation by killing murderers. we do it by not putting people in prison for everything in the book. if you want to be for death penalty, fine. but don't make up excuses to further support the position, when they are false.
the reason we have so many people in prison is because we ban everything under the book. drugs are a big one. a big reason is probably because we have people who are bitter about living on the streets etc, our capitalistic country. this is in reference to why we have so many in prison here, as compared to other countries.
if we took care of our excessive legislating of crimes etc, and perhaps developed a more just society, we'd have rooms for murderous criminals.

Edited May 21, 2012 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

'And I do think it can be argued that life under the extreme conditions of a Super Max prison can be a more cruel punishment than execution.'

and another excuse to justify a preexisting belief.
don't ya think most prisoners would rather stay alive, no matter where they are? if they did... then who are we to decide which is the better fate for their best interests? of course society isn't gonna let em choose whether to stay alive or not, cause we all know what by far most would choose.
to act as if it's their best interests anyways, and yet more proof for for why the penalty should exist.... given the reasoning i just gave, can only amount to yet another excuse.
-----
"Extremely violent and dangerous criminals are regularly shuffled in and out of Super Maxes and mental health facilities, which, imo, does not not ensure the safety of the public."

i'm not sure what this is getting at exactly so i'll speculate. and how often do murderous criminals break out of prison and harm public safety? they don't. at least not enough to take as a serious concern, so i'll just assume the best and that he's not trying to go here, as it'd only work in some abstract world, not this one. how often do we let them out etc? sometimes. doesn't that mean we should keep them in prison for life or something? that's an alternative to just killing them as this seems to be getting at. the criticism then should be about being stricter, not killing em. the jump to killing em under the banner of public safety also seems like confused thinking that's trying to justify a preexisting condition.

Edited May 21, 2012 by dairygirl4u2c