How Can A Faithful Catholic Be A Democrat?

[kujo]

I think the operative difference between Nazis and the Democratic Party is voting. Being a member of the Democratic party as a citizen means you are voting every so often for a candidate for public office who will represent you in that office. As a politician or other elected official, you're placed into your seat to vote for or against certain bills or policies that espouse the beliefs of yourself and your constituency.

On the other hand, being a Nazi in Germany in the 30s and 40s meant one thing--you were male who was conscripted to the army. The ideological preferences you may or may not have held had nothing to do with your membership. It was the law, and unless you were part of the very small minority of dissenters who were able to flee the country, you abided the law at gun point.

Thus, thess's analogy does not hold water.

[kujo]

As to the argument about registering as a Dem--or Republican, for that matter-- for the sake of supporting candidates who might be pro-life, I simply question the utility of the action. In the hyper-moneyed, hyper-partisan, dismally-idiotic political system we currently find ourselves in, these politicians who work against the grain on such divisive issues such as abortion will simply never attain much power or influence, even if they somehow find themselves elected. The committee and/or caucus will not support them. Sure they could get elected, but they will be marginalized and treated like pariahs. It's just a fact of life. There might be exceptions, but they'll be few and far between.

So, in my opinion, there's nothing morally wrong with doing what cmom is doing. It's just not fruitful.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1336739793' post='2429736']
You can "belong" to a party and still not agree with everything they stand for. Catholic Answers and their "Voter's Guide" isn't the Vatican (NOT to say it doesn't have good points, just that it doesn't have the same weight as the Vatican). Faith-based programs AREN'T a [i]replacement [/i]for government programs. Government programs have a broader audience. Every child should have the opportunity for education, and last time I checked Catholic schools were still expensive, generally speaking. Public school doesn't mean it's the [i]only [/i]school.

Republicans would rather give the rich tax cuts and get the money to cover our national debt from everyone else, particular programs that serve the poor and fund education. Most Republicans support the death penalty (which is completely inexcusable for pro-life Americans). I only bring it up because even though it may be another thread for another time, talking about how Catholics supposedly can't be Democrats makes it sound like the only other option is to be a Republican. BOTH parties smell of elderberries.
[/quote]
Sigh . . . Where to even begin?

1) There is absolutely nothing in Catholic Church teaching that requires Catholics to support ever-increasing spending on federal government "social programs" and ever-expanding entitlements as practiced by the Democrat Party. Due to the vast and ever-increasing spending of the government under Obama and the Democrats (and yes, the Republicans under Bush contributed to this disaster, but Obama greatly compounded it), we are 16 trillion dollars in debt and counting. This is an unthinkably huge sum of money, which America will never be able to pay its creditors, and will lead to financial ruin for our country in the long run. Our current levels of spending are simply unsustainable, and a bankrupt nation will simply not be able to help its poor and destitute. Laying a vast debt on our young and future generations which they will never be able to pay back to pay for ever-expanding entitlements is neither charitable nor Christian, but quite the opposite. The poor will be the ones ultimately most hurt by the reckless insanity of our government's out of control spending.

(Not that the "mainstream" GOP leadership is a vast improvement in this regards. As the great Mark Steyn put it, Obama's policies are setting us full-throttle, pedal-to-the-metal over the cliff of financial ruin, while Romney would only slow us down into third gear.)

Those duped by "progressive" "Catholic" propaganda into thinking that being a faithful Catholic somehow demands that we support the ever-expanding all-encompassing welfare state as pushed by the Dems would do well to read the sections of John Paul II's [i]Centesimus Annus[/i] regarding the principle of subsidiarity and the "social assistance state" or "welfare state."

Regarding "tax cuts for the rich," conservatives realize that the wealth of our country comes ultimately from private business and enterprise, rather than out of Obama's backside, to be spread around "fairly" by government bureaucrats, We need much less taxation and spending all around. Increasing taxes on those who create wealth will not solve any of our financial problems, but only lead to increased joblessness and poverty. And don't even get me started on the fiasco caused by the NEA and other public employee unions demanding ever-increasing pay and entitlements at tax-payer expense.

Yes, I realize that there are Catholics who disagree with conservatives on these issues in good faith, though I believe they are dead wrong.
But anyone who claims that support for socialistic welfare state policies in anyway justifies supporting a Party or politicians who are blatantly and explicitly for abortion and other such grave intrinsic evils is either very ignorant or dishonest.

It's horrible economics, and even worse theology.

2) Unlike abortion, which is intrinsically evil and wrong in each and every circumstance, the Catholic Church has always and repeatedly taught that the state has the right to use recourse to the death penalty to protect society from certain violent criminals.

As stated in the Council of Trent:


[quote]
The power of life and death is permitted to certain civil magistrates because theirs is the responsibility under law to punish the guilty and protect the innocent. Far from being guilty of breaking this commandment [Thy shall not kill], such an execution of justice is precisely an act of obedience to it. For the purpose of the law is to protect and foster human life. This purpose is fulfilled when the legitimate authority of the State is exercised by taking the guilty lives of those who have taken innocent lives.

In the Psalms we find a vindication of this right: “Morning by morning I will destroy all the wicked in the land, cutting off all evildoers from the city of the Lord” (Ps. 101:8). [/quote]
While people in good faith can argue whether the death penalty is necessary in today's world, to put the death penalty on the same level as abortion morally is again either ignorant or dishonest. (And besides, what has Obama done to end to the death penalty, anyway?)

While it can be argued that there may be prudential reasons, as CMom pointed out, for membership in the Democratic Party, there is absolutely no reason to justify voting for their leaders at the national level.

Obama and the national Democratic Party's explicit support of abortion on demand, contempt for basic religious freedom displayed by their insistence on the HHS mandate forcing Catholic employers to pay for contraception, and explicit support of "gay marriage" should make their complete incompatibility with Catholic morality and blatant opposition to the Church more than obvious. Anyone who denies this is either lying or willfully blind

The inadequacies and failures of Republicans do nothing to change this fact, nor do they justify supporting what is obviously the Greater Evil. If you truly think the country will be better off if you vote third party or refrain from voting, then do so. (Though I would respectfully disagree in most instances. I think we simply cannot afford another term of Obama, but that's another debate.) However, there is no justification to vote for Obama or his cronies. None. I have yet to see a single argument for voting Democrat on the national level that I can take even halfway seriously. Not one. Those "Catholics" who support Obama and his ilk are either idiots, willfully ignorant, or liars. Sorry if that offends people on here, but that's the simple truth of the matter. God bless.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Socrates

[BG45]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1337041271' post='2430673']
You obviously haven't been to Chicago, have you?
[/quote]
[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1337041459' post='2430675']
LoL! Or Wisconsin.
[/quote]

Or southern WV. A few years ago when I lived in WV still, the local news was reporting what authorities believed to be a case of election fraud. "believed" being the politically correct way to describe the fact that more people voted than were of voting age in a city where it happened.

[havok579257]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1337013990' post='2430501']
Seems like someone has a guilty conscience. 6 million Jews killed. Ask the question - Could one morally belong to the nazi party. 50 million babies killed..... Sorry, having a hard time seeing the difference. I guess you say one could morally belong to the nazi party..... Can't see it myself. At least not once they knew what the Nazi party was. Early on perhaps. We know what the democratic party is. I stand by my comments. We are all acting like frogs in water if we can't see the analogy. ABORTION IS A GRAVE MORAL EVIL. The gravest of our day! The death penalty does not compare to 50 million unborn children and counting. I AM NOT REPUABLICAN BY THE WAY. If you don't like my posts and they bother your conscience don't read them. Others are discussing them so I don't feel it is all for naught.

God bless
[/quote]

I love this. You can get on here an say your not a republican and end of story. I state I am not democrat and do not vote democrat and you still try to put me in your little mold as democrat. Just like your not a republican, I am not a democrat and don't vote democrat. Is it really that hard to understand?

so because the death penalty does not compare to abortions i guess that makes it a good thing. i guys those innocent men and yes there have been innocent men executed, are ok because it doesn't compare and if it doesn't compare its a good thing.

maybe i am wrong here and correct me if i am but the Pope has never come out and said democrats are like nazi's. I prefer his example of dealing with the culture of death as oppossed to yours which has no chance of changing anyones mind because when you compare people to nazi they just shut you off.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1337047076' post='2430706']
Sigh . . . Where to even begin?

1) There is absolutely nothing in Catholic Church teaching that requires Catholics to support ever-increasing spending on federal government "social programs" and ever-expanding entitlements as practiced by the Democrat Party. Due to the vast and ever-increasing spending of the government under Obama and the Democrats (and yes, the Republicans under Bush contributed to this disaster, but Obama greatly compounded it), we are 16 trillion dollars in debt and counting. This is an unthinkably huge sum of money, which America will never be able to pay its creditors, and will lead to financial ruin for our country in the long run. Our current levels of spending are simply unsustainable, and a bankrupt nation will simply not be able to help its poor and destitute. Laying a vast debt on our young and future generations which they will never be able to pay back to pay for ever-expanding entitlements is neither charitable nor Christian, but quite the opposite. The poor will be the ones ultimately most hurt by the reckless insanity of our government's out of control spending.

(Not that the "mainstream" GOP leadership is a vast improvement in this regards. As the great Mark Steyn put it, Obama's policies are setting us full-throttle, pedal-to-the-metal over the cliff of financial ruin, while Romney would only slow us down into third gear.)

Those duped by "progressive" "Catholic" propaganda into thinking that being a faithful Catholic somehow demands that we support the ever-expanding all-encompassing welfare state as pushed by the Dems would do well to read the sections of John Paul II's [i]Centesimus Annus[/i] regarding the principle of subsidiarity and the "social assistance state" or "welfare state."

Regarding "tax cuts for the rich," conservatives realize that the wealth of our country comes ultimately from private business and enterprise, rather than out of Obama's backside, to be spread around "fairly" by government bureaucrats, We need much less taxation and spending all around. Increasing taxes on those who create wealth will not solve any of our financial problems, but only lead to increased joblessness and poverty. And don't even get me started on the fiasco caused by the NEA and other public employee unions demanding ever-increasing pay and entitlements at tax-payer expense.

Yes, I realize that there are Catholics who disagree with conservatives on these issues in good faith, though I believe they are dead wrong.
But anyone who claims that support for socialistic welfare state policies in anyway justifies supporting a Party or politicians who are blatantly and explicitly for abortion and other such grave intrinsic evils is either very ignorant or dishonest.

It's horrible economics, and even worse theology.

2) Unlike abortion, which is intrinsically evil and wrong in each and every circumstance, the Catholic Church has always and repeatedly taught that the state has the right to use recourse to the death penalty to protect society from certain violent criminals.

As stated in the Council of Trent:



While people in good faith can argue whether the death penalty is necessary in today's world, to put the death penalty on the same level as abortion morally is again either ignorant or dishonest. (And besides, what has Obama done to end to the death penalty, anyway?)

While it can be argued that there may be prudential reasons, as CMom pointed out, for membership in the Democratic Party, there is absolutely no reason to justify voting for their leaders at the national level.

Obama and the national Democratic Party's explicit support of abortion on demand, contempt for basic religious freedom displayed by their insistence on the HHS mandate forcing Catholic employers to pay for contraception, and explicit support of "gay marriage" should make their complete incompatibility with Catholic morality and blatant opposition to the Church more than obvious. Anyone who denies this is either lying or willfully blind

The inadequacies and failures of Republicans do nothing to change this fact, nor do they justify supporting what is obviously the Greater Evil. If you truly think the country will be better off if you vote third party or refrain from voting, then do so. (Though I would respectfully disagree in most instances. I think we simply cannot afford another term of Obama, but that's another debate.) However, there is no justification to vote for Obama or his cronies. None. I have yet to see a single argument for voting Democrat on the national level that I can take even halfway seriously. Not one. Those "Catholics" who support Obama and his ilk are either idiots, willfully ignorant, or liars. Sorry if that offends people on here, but that's the simple truth of the matter. God bless.
[/quote]

the trickle down effect does not work. it just doesn't. cooperate profits are more today with less people working. the companies can get less people to do the same job and make a bigger profit. the thing is republicans and democrats are paid off by lobbyists. the deomcrats have the unions,the LGBT group and others. The republicans have the private rich, evangicalsand usch. To think either party is working in the interest of the common man or their platformis completely right is deluding yourself. All these senators and representatives are doing one thing... trying their best to secure re-election in the future. You have career politicans who care only about re-election.

i just find it frusterating when people put politics in front of their religion. the conservative party in america does not support catholic theology. parts of it go against catholic theology. use of the death penalty as a deterent/revenge, pre-emptive strikes, immoral wars(i don't care that the pope did not speak infalliably when saying the iraq war was not a just war. he's the pope and he has way more knowledge than anyone on this board. to disagree with him just shows those people are not interested in the truth buare interested more in justifying thier political leanings. i can't get behind anyone who says the pope did not speak infalliably so that means he can be wrong and he is but I who am not on the pope's level is correct because obviously I know more about catholic theology than the pope), cutting money for those in need(as much as people cry about a welfare/nanny state there are people, good people who need help getting along. cutting funding for any reason is unexceptable. perfect example is hear in kansas they are going to cut funding for blind people who make just enough so they don't qualify for medicare. i don't care what excuse they come up with, its not right. these people who fall just above the poverty line but don't make enough to support themselves without helpneed help. cuttingtheir funding and leaving them to fend for themselves is not right).

i mean don't even get me started on paul ryans budget plan. he wants cuts in so called entitlements but wants to give more money to the military. money the military is NOT asking for. his reasoning is that he believes the military is to afraid to ask for the money theyreally need. i mean come on.

this is exactly what i mean. politicians are notout to help the common man. they are out to push their agenda and secure re-election.

oh and please do not read into this that i am a democrat because i am not. i will not vote democrat as long as they support abortion, gay marriage, and other things which go against catholic theology. my point is the republican partyis not the "catholic party" by any means and is immoral just like the democrat party. they arenot equal in their immorality because of abortion and gay marriage but immoral none the less.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337061322' post='2430788']
I love this. You can get on here an say your not a republican and end of story. I state I am not democrat and do not vote democrat and you still try to put me in your little mold as democrat. Just like your not a republican, I am not a democrat and don't vote democrat. Is it really that hard to understand? [/quote]

Missed where you said you were not a democrat. My apologies.

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337061322' post='2430788']

so because the death penalty does not compare to abortions i guess that makes it a good thing. i guys those innocent men and yes there have been innocent men executed, are ok because it doesn't compare and if it doesn't compare its a good thing.
[/quote]

Now who is making logical leaps and rash judgements. I hardly think the death penalty is a good thing. In fact I said about I do think it is unneccessary in this day and age for most countries. Definitely in the US. Certainly when innocent men are executed that is not good. All I said is that there is a big difference between the death penalty and and 50 milloin abortions. If you can't see that then you are blind.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1336974001' post='2430430']
Funny that you used the word fact, since very little of what you posted was fact.
1. He not only served in the Hitler Youth, but also in the full-fledged Wehrmacht for two years.
2. By this point in the war, he was 16/17.
3. He did not desert until the very end of the war (we're talking, like, last few weeks - late April 1945).

It doesn't really matter how he came to be a part of the party, in any case. Your statement was that every member of a given party, the example you chose to provide being the Nazis, necessarily adheres to every facet of the party. I provided a counter-example to that.

And, in a very real sense, it is compulsory to be a member of a party in many places. For instance, in my state, if one is not registered as a Republican or Democrat, he cannot vote in the primaries, thereby excluding him from a very large part of the electoral process. Both parties support the culture of death. So, then, I fail to see how my counter-example doesn't hold water.

Now that we've cleared that up, here's a question: if it is not permissible to be a Democrat, whitherto do you believe that a "good" Catholic should desert?
[/quote]

Regardless of the details it is poor arguementation to say that because B16 was in some way affiliated with the Nazi party at some point in his life that it is okay for a Catholic to be democrat. B16 has made mistakes in his life. I will bet you today that if you asked him he would say it was a mistake to have any thing to do with the Hitler youth. I am quite sure of it since he did in fact desert them. I have already answered whether a good Catolic can be a democrat. In my view an organization that has supported the murder of 50 million human beings is just as evil as the Nazi party.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1337096810' post='2430894']
Regardless of the details it is poor arguementation to say that because B16 was in some way affiliated with the Nazi party at some point in his life that it is okay for a Catholic to be democrat. B16 has made mistakes in his life. I will bet you today that if you asked him he would say it was a mistake to have any thing to do with the Hitler youth. I am quite sure of it since he did in fact desert them. I have already answered whether a good Catolic can be a democrat. In my view an organization that has supported the murder of 50 million human beings is just as evil as the Nazi party.
[/quote]
You dodged every point I made that wasn't related to 20th century Germany.

[kujo]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1337096810' post='2430894']
In my view an organization that has supported the murder of 50 million human beings is just as evil as the Nazi party.
[/quote]

Ergo, being a member of this "evil" organization is participation with "evil." Therefore, the pope participated in evil.

Right? I mean, that [i]is[/i] the natural endpoint of your moronic logic here.

[havok579257]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1337096498' post='2430891']

Missed where you said you were not a democrat. My apologies.



Now who is making logical leaps and rash judgements. I hardly think the death penalty is a good thing. In fact I said about I do think it is unneccessary in this day and age for most countries. Definitely in the US. Certainly when innocent men are executed that is not good. All I said is that there is a big difference between the death penalty and and 50 milloin abortions. If you can't see that then you are blind.
[/quote]

yes there is a huge difference. absolutly. abortion is one of the greatest travesties against innocent humanity. although my point was that the death penalty is not just a small thing. its a very big thing. not as big as abortion but still big none the less. also my point was the republican party also supports a culture of death.

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337101302' post='2430920']
yes there is a huge difference. absolutly. abortion is one of the greatest travesties against innocent humanity. although my point was that the death penalty is not just a small thing. its a very big thing. not as big as abortion but still big none the less. also my point was the republican party also supports a culture of death.
[/quote]

The death penalty is just another cog in the unrelenting machine that is the Culture of Death. Sure, abortion could be viewed as "worse," but the fact is that the death penalty is another example of man denying the simple fact that only God exact vengeance. I recognize that the ethics and morals of the death penalty are a lot more nuanced and complicated than that, but still.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1337102045' post='2430922']
The death penalty is just another cog in the unrelenting machine that is the Culture of Death. Sure, abortion could be viewed as "worse," but the fact is that the death penalty is another example of man denying the simple fact that only God exact vengeance.
[/quote]
It should be clarified that this is the case in the first world. In the developing world, without reliable means of detaining violent individuals and keeping them separated from the general population, the death penalty may still be a viable option for the good of the people and their safety.

Edited May 15, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1337102045' post='2430922']


The death penalty is just another cog in the unrelenting machine that is the Culture of Death. Sure, abortion could be viewed as "worse," but the fact is that the death penalty is another example of man denying the simple fact that only God exact vengeance. I recognize that the ethics and morals of the death penalty are a lot more nuanced and complicated than that, but still.
[/quote]A huge difference between abortion and capital punishment is the arbiter. An individual is killing in one and the state is killing in the other.

Another massive difference is that one is done selfishly while the other is done as punishment.

Killing as punishment is not of the same sort as killing for selfish reasons.

[kujo]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1337102590' post='2430923']
It should be clarified that this is the case in the first world. In the developing world, without reliable means of detaining violent individuals and keeping them separated from the general population, the death penalty may still be a viable option for the good of the people and their safety.
[/quote]

Sure.