How Can A Faithful Catholic Be A Democrat?

[Groo the Wanderer]

Since a batch of buttknuckles turned this into a question of which right is the most important....let me state this. Try to argue if you wish...good luck.

NO other right, defined by God, the Church, Man, or the State takes precedence over life.
1. dead people cannot marry, regardless of sex
2. dead people cannot vote, regardless of age
3. dead people cannot emigrate/immigrate to/from any country
4. dead people care not one whit about their tax rate
5. dead people do not buy gas at any price
6. dead people do not have a standard of living
7. dead people do not care about clean air or water or spotted owls or hug trees
8. dead people do not need handicapped access, wheelchair ramps, or wide doorways
9. dead people do not require healthcare, health insurance, or long term care
10. dead people do not own property, nor invest in 401(k)s

In other words, if you do not stand up first for the right of a person to live, to be born in the first place, none of the other things you stand up for mean a flipping thing for that person.

werd.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336972571' post='2430423']
Since a batch of buttknuckles turned this into a question of which right is the most important....let me state this. Try to argue if you wish...good luck.
[/quote]I think this is part of the answer. Often Catholic Democrats, when they're not entirely against the Church (like Nancy Pelosi is), justify their position on the idea of rights and what is important, but in the process they often overlook what is truly important for some reason or another.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1336940112' post='2430249']
A false comparison since he had no choice in the matter. Every 14 year old HAD to be a member of the Hitler youth. Fact. Further he deserted it like a good Catholic should desert the Democratic party. Further there is a big difference between a 14 year old boy and the courage expected of an adult! Nope I stand by my post.
[/quote]
Funny that you used the word fact, since very little of what you posted was fact.
1. He not only served in the Hitler Youth, but also in the full-fledged Wehrmacht for two years.
2. By this point in the war, he was 16/17.
3. He did not desert until the very end of the war (we're talking, like, last few weeks - late April 1945).

It doesn't really matter how he came to be a part of the party, in any case. Your statement was that every member of a given party, the example you chose to provide being the Nazis, necessarily adheres to every facet of the party. I provided a counter-example to that.

And, in a very real sense, it is compulsory to be a member of a party in many places. For instance, in my state, if one is not registered as a Republican or Democrat, he cannot vote in the primaries, thereby excluding him from a very large part of the electoral process. Both parties support the culture of death. So, then, I fail to see how my counter-example doesn't hold water.

Now that we've cleared that up, here's a question: if it is not permissible to be a Democrat, whitherto do you believe that a "good" Catholic should desert?

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1336974001' post='2430430']
Now that we've cleared that up, here's a question: if it is not permissible to be a Democrat, whitherto do you believe that a "good" Catholic should desert?
[/quote]

Form a third party - Church Militant. :-)

[havok579257]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336992579' post='2430441']
Form a third party - Church Militant. :-)
[/quote]

the problem is to vote for a third party is to throw your vote away. we can all get on here and talk about if enough people joined a third party they maybe they would actually be elected. although we are deluding ourselves. the vast majority of americans will never get behind a third party in a major election. the problem comes from the conservative and liberal media outlets only show republican or democrat canidates for the vast majority of their programming. i would guess most americans are not going to go out on their own to investigate a third party,hence no third party will be elected to a major position of power. in close ellections you have to vote for the least evil candidate otherwise people like Obama get elected.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1336943495' post='2430270']
your really comparing catholic democrats on THIS site with Hitler? Czause your talking to people online on Phatmass,not the entire world. Do you think anyone on here will actually listen to your arguements or consider your points on here when you compare them to Hitler? You just trying to start something and obviously have no intention of trying to change minds and hearts here on phatmass.

Oh and now personal attacks on my knowledge of catholic faith. Grow up, seriously. Your acting childish. Don't agree with what I say and you figure best route is personal attacks.
[/quote]

Seems like someone has a guilty conscience. 6 million Jews killed. Ask the question - Could one morally belong to the nazi party. 50 million babies killed..... Sorry, having a hard time seeing the difference. I guess you say one could morally belong to the nazi party..... Can't see it myself. At least not once they knew what the Nazi party was. Early on perhaps. We know what the democratic party is. I stand by my comments. We are all acting like frogs in water if we can't see the analogy. ABORTION IS A GRAVE MORAL EVIL. The gravest of our day! The death penalty does not compare to 50 million unborn children and counting. I AM NOT REPUABLICAN BY THE WAY. If you don't like my posts and they bother your conscience don't read them. Others are discussing them so I don't feel it is all for naught.

God bless

[thessalonian]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1336943495' post='2430270']
your really comparing catholic democrats on THIS site with Hitler? Czause your talking to people online on Phatmass,not the entire world. Do you think anyone on here will actually listen to your arguements or consider your points on here when you compare them to Hitler? You just trying to start something and obviously have no intention of trying to change minds and hearts here on phatmass.

Oh and now personal attacks on my knowledge of catholic faith. Grow up, seriously. Your acting childish. Don't agree with what I say and you figure best route is personal attacks.
[/quote]

Seems like someone has a guilty conscience. 6 million Jews killed. Ask the question - Could one morally belong to the nazi party. 50 million babies killed..... Sorry, having a hard time seeing the difference. I guess you say one could morally belong to the nazi party..... Can't see it myself. At least not once they knew what the Nazi party was. Early on perhaps. We know what the democratic party is. I stand by my comments. We are all acting like frogs in water if we can't see the analogy. ABORTION IS A GRAVE MORAL EVIL. The gravest of our day! The death penalty does not compare to 50 million unborn children and counting. I AM NOT REPUABLICAN BY THE WAY. If you don't like my posts and they bother your conscience don't read them. Others are discussing them so I don't feel it is all for naught.

God bless

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336992579' post='2430441']
Form a third party - Church Militant. :-)
[/quote]
Okay. I could get behind that.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1337013990' post='2430501']
Seems like someone has a guilty conscience. 6 million Jews killed. Ask the question - Could one morally belong to the nazi party. 50 million babies killed..... Sorry, having a hard time seeing the difference. I guess you say one could morally belong to the nazi party..... Can't see it myself. At least not once they knew what the Nazi party was. Early on perhaps. We know what the democratic party is. I stand by my comments. We are all acting like frogs in water if we can't see the analogy. ABORTION IS A GRAVE MORAL EVIL. The gravest of our day! The death penalty does not compare to 50 million unborn children and counting. I AM NOT REPUABLICAN BY THE WAY. If you don't like my posts and they bother your conscience don't read them. Others are discussing them so I don't feel it is all for naught.

God bless
[/quote]Your generalities don't bother my conscience, since that is what they are. If I chose to vote independent I would have no influence at all on a primary election, and here in Pa that is what counts. You can't elect a pro-life democrat if you can't vote.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think thes's analogy works. but with that said, why would it be wrong to be a member of the Nazi party, if the real only reason one belonged to it, was because they wanted to influence votes to lessen all evils, lesser of all evils argument etc. ?

[dairygirl4u2c]

it could be argued that voting third party or such things that waste a vote is the greater sin, evil etc. because you are not doing what you can to mitigate evil, and promote good, that is within your *reasonable* power to do so.
for example, i don't think it, but if you thought romney was the lesser evil because of abortion etc, it'd be your moral perogative to vote for him, instead of some better third party candidate who has no chance of winning.
you can't escape making tough decisions and responsiblity so easily.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1337030593' post='2430594']
i think thes's analogy works. but with that said, why would it be wrong to be a member of the Nazi party, if the real only reason one belonged to it, was because they wanted to influence votes to lessen all evils, lesser of all evils argument etc. ?
[/quote]I think as long as you have the possibility to change the stance of a party on a issue you should hang in there doing your best. I think that is a much better option than throwing in the towel and doing nothing. I still don't vote for pro-abortionists.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336972571' post='2430423']
2. dead people cannot vote, regardless of age
[/quote]

You obviously haven't been to Chicago, have you?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1337041271' post='2430673']


You obviously haven't been to Chicago, have you?
[/quote]LoL! Or Wisconsin.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

i think what groo is getting @ is if you vote the democrats, in the general party outline includes what he stated,and even voting for those whom are pro life within the party the old saying comes to mind that "a kingdom divided against itself can never suceed" so if the general party consensus is yada yada than the pro-lifers will have to bow down to the majority or get lost because it's the democratic party,weight of numbers. Also musing through the other postings i think the magesterium has clearly stated that one can not get in the frame of mind of doing evil with the intent of a good outcome,even i assume if the supposed evil has all power to make changes. Like lets say i go on a vigilante mission to murder all the drug dealers,than i would just be one evil replacing the other evil so to speak (extreme example but politics is pretty much life or death too) the outcome can never be good from choosing to do evil. Thats what i rekon anyhow. Keep voting the good even if the good seems to be less powerful in popularity i guarentee you it is more powerful,and besides if you never vote for them they will never have the numbers anyhow, if numbers truely matter which i hear they do in a democratic system of polotics.

Onward christian souls.
Jesus is LORD.
God is good,God is love,God saves.

P.s. and if every party in general becomes evil than i would be copping jail time for not voting, probably have more luck sewing and nurturing seed sin there if that ever happens.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye