How Can A Faithful Catholic Be A Democrat?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1337558318' post='2433085']
this sounds like finding excuses to justify preexisting conditions, if i ever saw it.
murderous criminals are not super common... at least the kind we have to have super max prisons etc. we have tons of prisons. we shouldn't think we should solve our prison overpopulation by killing murderers. we do it by not putting people in prison for everything in the book. if you want to be for death penalty, fine. but don't make up excuses to further support the position, when they are false.
the reason we have so many people in prison is because we ban everything under the book. drugs are a big one. a big reason is probably because we have people who are bitter about living on the streets etc, our capitalistic country. this is in reference to why we have so many in prison here, as compared to other countries.
if we took care of our excessive legislating of crimes etc, and perhaps developed a more just society, we'd have rooms for murderous criminals.
[/quote]

i mean, in a certain sense, i think one could argue 'our system is overpopulated, so let's just execute those who did what they did'. but of course it's so 'unchristian' to come out and say it, so instead we see the confused thinking that i just quoted and commented on.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1337102045' post='2430922']
but the fact is that the death penalty is another example of man denying the simple fact that only God exact vengeance. [/quote]

If you read the Bible, you will find that God delegated that authority to humans. Remember, it was God Who commanded execution for certain crimes.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337062899' post='2430791']
(i don't care that the pope did not speak infalliably when saying the iraq war was not a just war. he's the pope and he has way more knowledge than anyone on this board. [/quote]

Does the Pope sit in on the daily military intelligence briefings the President receives?

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't think it was God who was requiring people to be executed... it was people who are claiming it to have been God. but that's just me.
in a way though, i know it's not just me... it's most here, even if they aren't fully aware of it. no one has so far claimed they'd stone people if they were Jewish back in the day, so i'm assuming most don't take all biblical dictates seriously. unless you would stone people, then by all means, jump on your pedestal in claiming it was divine mandate.
in any case, if we can assume that "something has changed" just by virtue of Jesus coming and existing, as to why we don' stone etc... then perhaps we can assume something has changed in general.
remember, jewish people did live by the slogan of "an eye for an eye" which Jesus came and abolished.

[Anomaly]

Yeah. The perfect moral problem of giving a murderer life in hellish conditions that endangers others and drives prisoners insane do he has decades to "repent" before he dies of old age. Compared to the mercy provided to a victim that was raped to death that had hellish hours or seconds to repent for "salvation". Makes no sense whatsoever. We aren't talking about lynch mobs or drawing and quartering or hanging. We are talking about justice for the brutal murder of another human being. If life is precious, what is the penalty for stealing another's life and/ or opportunity to repent for being in a second marriage, skipping Sunday Mass, or masturbating the day before some burgular breaks into your house and stabs you after raping your wife and children.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1337564042' post='2433126']
Does the Pope sit in on the daily military intelligence briefings the President receives?
[/quote]

the pope is the head of christianity in the world today. i trust him more on morals than george bush or barack obama. i don't look to bush or obama to tell me if what they are doing is moral. i look to the pope for what is moral.

to disgaree with the pope on morals appears to me as being prideful. your(generalized) basically saying the pope is wrong and you(generalized) know better than the pope, so your right. i guess my thinking is where does a regular lay person get off thinking they know more thanthe pope on morals.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1337565830' post='2433135']
Yeah. The perfect moral problem of giving a murderer life in hellish conditions that endangers others and drives prisoners insane do he has decades to "repent" before he dies of old age. Compared to the mercy provided to a victim that was raped to death that had hellish hours or seconds to repent for "salvation". Makes no sense whatsoever. We aren't talking about lynch mobs or drawing and quartering or hanging. We are talking about justice for the brutal murder of another human being. If life is precious, what is the penalty for stealing another's life and/ or opportunity to repent for being in a second marriage, skipping Sunday Mass, or masturbating the day before some burgular breaks into your house and stabs you after raping your wife and children.
[/quote]

the death penalty should not be used for so called justice(revenge). it should be used if the state is unable to keep society safe from said person.

also your logic is used for people who support abortion in cases of rape. why not do the nice thing and kill the baby because if not he will grow up in filth, being unloved by the mother who was raped, being emotionally otrtured and possibly grow up and be a rapist himself.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337566761' post='2433139']
the pope is the head of christianity in the world today. i trust him more on morals than george bush or barack obama. i don't look to bush or obama to tell me if what they are doing is moral. i look to the pope for what is moral.

to disgaree with the pope on morals appears to me as being prideful. your(generalized) basically saying the pope is wrong and you(generalized) know better than the pope, so your right. i guess my thinking is where does a regular lay person get off thinking they know more thanthe pope on morals.
[/quote]

Unlike abortion, military action in and of itself is not intrinsically immoral. There are several factors that factor in, some of which the Pope may not be privy to.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337567128' post='2433141']


the death penalty should not be used for so called justice(revenge). it should be used if the state is unable to keep society safe from said person.

also your logic is used for people who support abortion in cases of rape. why not do the nice thing and kill the baby because if not he will grow up in filth, being unloved by the mother who was raped, being emotionally otrtured and possibly grow up and be a rapist himself.
[/quote]Wrong. You call it revenge, others call it just punishment despite the NEW teachings by the Catholic Church. Revenge is a mob dragging him into the square and hanging him. Justice is a trial, years reviewing evidence, setting a date, and following through with the proscribed penalty.

Much more mercy and opportunity for salvation than was afforded the victim. Do you even know what justice is?

[Ed Normile]

Ahh, to be young and know it all again!

Somebody said the republicans are for the death penalty and therefore are as bad as the pro-death types? This is amazing as the last time I checked the Catholic church was ok with the death penalty, in certain cases.
This boils down to one truth, the people on death row are convicted criminals while the aborted unborn are innocents robbed of life for the conveinence of the mother in most cases.

Another said the republicans are for tax breaks for the wealthy and taking the money from programs to help the poor, they should have questioned their professor a tad more when told this fallacy, I will agree about tax breaks for the wealthy, as well as for the poor, the tax breaks are across the board and the monies are not "taken" from anything, they are just not given to new projects. Like it or not unless there is a wealthy class there are no jobs, the wealthy class start the businesses and hire the workers paying them monies they use for their lives, without these people there would be no jobs. You see the liberals/socialists have long ago learned how to con the young and or foolish by saying things like, unless this is passed "x" amount of dollars will be "taken" from some program", when they should be saying unless this is passed we will not have this program. Its like the latest con the foolish have fallen for, the " war on women " I can not beleive how gullible people are. Better watch out girls, the evil republicans are coming to your house to steal your condoms and morning after pills!

Amazingly 52% of catholics voted for Obama in the presidential election, this is a sad statistic and one that I pray changes this year, that is my hope for change.

ed

[havok579257]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1337567781' post='2433147']
Wrong. You call it revenge, others call it just punishment despite the NEW teachings by the Catholic Church. Revenge is a mob dragging him into the square and hanging him. Justice is a trial, years reviewing evidence, setting a date, and following through with the proscribed penalty.

Much more mercy and opportunity for salvation than was afforded the victim. Do you even know what justice is?
[/quote]

anamoly your not catholic so i don't expect you to undertsand catholic teaching and morals. killing in thename or revenge or as you call it "just punishment" just doesn't work with catholic theology.

also revenge is not only done through mob justice. if i kill my familys murder because he killed my family that is revenge also. revenge kills do not come in one size fits all and everything else is ok killings.

i know what justice is, although your not speaking of justice,your speaking of revenge. your saying because person A killed person B they deserve to die, end of story. that's societies way of dealing with so called justice,that is not the catholic churchs way of justice.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1337567726' post='2433146']
Unlike abortion, military action in and of itself is not intrinsically immoral. There are several factors that factor in, some of which the Pope may not be privy to.
[/quote]

ok, if the pope is not privy to these events then niether are the posters on phatmass. so with exactly the same amount of knowledge as the pope of what happened in iraq, i still say its prideful to disagree with the pope. his judgement (all knowledge of situation being equal) on the morality is greated than the average lay person. so to say, given the example that lay person can better judge the morality of an action than the pope is prideful. never in a millions years would i thinki know more about morality in a given situation than the pope.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1337569313' post='2433162']
Ahh, to be young and know it all again!

Somebody said the republicans are for the death penalty and therefore are as bad as the pro-death types? This is amazing as the last time I checked the Catholic church was ok with the death penalty, in certain cases.
This boils down to one truth, the people on death row are convicted criminals while the aborted unborn are innocents robbed of life for the conveinence of the mother in most cases.

Another said the republicans are for tax breaks for the wealthy and taking the money from programs to help the poor, they should have questioned their professor a tad more when told this fallacy, I will agree about tax breaks for the wealthy, as well as for the poor, the tax breaks are across the board and the monies are not "taken" from anything, they are just not given to new projects. Like it or not unless there is a wealthy class there are no jobs, the wealthy class start the businesses and hire the workers paying them monies they use for their lives, without these people there would be no jobs. You see the liberals/socialists have long ago learned how to con the young and or foolish by saying things like, unless this is passed "x" amount of dollars will be "taken" from some program", when they should be saying unless this is passed we will not have this program. Its like the latest con the foolish have fallen for, the " war on women " I can not beleive how gullible people are. Better watch out girls, the evil republicans are coming to your house to steal your condoms and morning after pills!

Amazingly 52% of catholics voted for Obama in the presidential election, this is a sad statistic and one that I pray changes this year, that is my hope for change.

ed
[/quote]

the trickle down effect does not work. profits for the rich continue to go up but they are not highering. today they are getting less people to do more work. more profits, less people, you do the math. tell me how that is helping the economy.

imade the point that paul ryan's budget isabout helping the rich and hurting the poor. paul ryan wants to decrease so called entitlements and give more money to the military. although here's the kicker, the military is not asking for more money. do you want to know paul ryans response? he believes the military is afraid to tell them they need more money. so his thought is they need more money but they are so scared they are unable to tell them. come on give me a break. that reasoning is off the wall.

(this part deals with financial and not social issues)the fact is conservativism by itself does not. liberalism by itself does not work. niether by itself works. comprimise works. both sides of the aisle have goodideas and both havehorrible ideas. although right now the republican party is in the mindset of absolutly no comprimise and that is hurting everyone. not saying liberals are all for comprimise either because they are not.

also any catholic who voted obamawas dead wrong. he is for abortion, gay marriage unmorality in the world. mitt romney is not mr morality himself, although because he is trying to appease conservatives, he is the more moral choice because at the end of the day that is the one area conservatives are 100% right and that is social issues relating to abortion and gay marriage.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337576588' post='2433189']
ok, if the pope is not privy to these events then niether are the posters on phatmass. so with exactly the same amount of knowledge as the pope of what happened in iraq, i still say its prideful to disagree with the pope. his judgement (all knowledge of situation being equal) on the morality is greated than the average lay person. so to say, given the example that lay person can better judge the morality of an action than the pope is prideful. never in a millions years would i thinki know more about morality in a given situation than the pope.
[/quote]

"Greated"? What kind of word is that?

The Pope is infallible on faith and morals, not military strategy.

[Vincent Vega]

That's a misspelling of "greater". I would shudder to think how shockingly poor one's reading comprehension skills would have to be in order to be unable to infer that from context clues.
Unless, of course, one was being intentionally obtuse in order to call attention to something trivial like an orthographical error in his opponent's argument in an effort to attempt to discredit his intelligence...but certainly no member of these forums would attempt something so puerile.