Joan Chittister Recommends Lcwr Secularize

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Skinzo' timestamp='1336516925' post='2428878']
This is an excellent post as is the one just put up by Sister Marie with which I whole heartedly agree. But as Dominican Soul points out this has all been going on since before the seventies! And while I continue to hope the LCWR does not claim the broad support of women religious in the USA for its dissident positions, you really have to wonder why there are not more protests from the member communities? Why are not faithful sisters crying out against what has been going on for so long? And while I am sure everyone here hopes and prays the LCWR will reform , one does have to wonder as they seem rather hardened in their positions. I am old enough to remember the Immaculate Heart Sisters and their confrontation with Cardinal McIntyre in Los Angeles in 1967.
It's really very similar. And rather than bend to what the Church asked of them, the Immaculate Heart sisters then ended up leaving the Church entirely. Out of 600 sisters only 50 voted to accept the Vatican requests of them, 350 left to form a non-Catholic group, and 150 left religious life completely. I sometimes think how little has changed in forty years.

S.
[/quote]

From what I've heard from sisters, a lot of them didn't even realize that anything "wrong" was going on. A lot of what the document outlining the investigation said was that they weren't pro-life enough and they didn't do enough to assert Catholic teaching when a speaker said things that were "muddled." The whole situation is a lot more complex than a lot of Catholic news organizations are making it out to be.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1336575537' post='2429105']
From what I've heard from sisters, a lot of them didn't even realize that anything "wrong" was going on. A lot of what the document outlining the investigation said was that they weren't pro-life enough and they didn't do enough to assert Catholic teaching when a speaker said things that were "muddled." The whole situation is a lot more complex than a lot of Catholic news organizations are making it out to be.
[/quote]

You are right, it is much more complicated than people are making it. I'm glad that now we are at the point that we are asking why sisters aren't speaking up more and what has really been happening.

The first distinction that I think many people are confused about is the nature of the LCWR itself. It isn't a big authority figure over the member communities. It has no authority over individual communities at all and in that sense a lot of sisters really haven't thought of the organization as incredibly important in their religious lives. I can't tell you the last time the LCWR was spoken of in my community in an official way - because I honestly don't remember it ever happening.

Whole communities are not members of LCWR - their general superiors are. If their general superiors aren't quoting LCWR news releases or passing on articles from the organization the individual sisters really aren't in any way involved with the organization. Superiors hear a lot of different stuff all the time and they pick and choose what is helpful to the sisters in their institute and ignore the rest. Some of the things they may be taking from the LCWR are resources to help them manage finances and secure funding for the retirement of their sisters, etc.... things that really aren't related at all to the essentials of religious life or to life issues... just really practical stuff that has to be dealt with. The thing is we don't know what each member is taking from their relationship with the LCWR.

Lastly, a lot of ordinary sisters, especially if their communities aren't pushing some of the crazy stuff, aren't paying attention to what the LCWR says unless its publicized in the secular media (like right now ) because it isn't personally affecting them. They are too busy with their apostolates, their daily living in community, and in prayer. Other sisters in communities where these things are being pushed probably feel like they don't have a voice. They are being obedient to their superiors and they continue to do good even when they disagree with some congregational, not individual, decisions.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense or is helpful - it's just my opinion and its been helpful for me as I've tried to muddle through all the discussion and make sense of what is happening right now. There is also a lot of fear for sisters right now and a lot of different reasons for it and fear is a strong motivator for human beings. That's a whole other post though.

[cmotherofpirl]

Sister what do you think of this article: [url="http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/blog/catholic-sisters-on-trial/"]http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/blog/catholic-sisters-on-trial/[/url]

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1336631303' post='2429365']
Sister what do you think of this article: [url="http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/blog/catholic-sisters-on-trial/"]http://www.faithinpu...sters-on-trial/[/url]
[/quote]

Well, the first thing is that I don't like the title. The Catholic and secular media are the ones who are making this into a trial, not the Church. To put it into perspective: they aren't assessing any communities, they aren't assessing individual sisters, they are assessing an organization's speakers and documents... there is much less being assessed than they are reporting. Most (not all) catholics, priests, sisters, and laity, who have commented on this whole story have either been happy the sisters are being "punished" or enraged that the sisters are being "punished." No punishment and no trial has occurred or is going to occur. This is about the Church wanting to correct some doctrinal issues.

After getting past the title, although the article still pins sisters against the Church and the Church against them, there were a few good points I think. First, the issue with abortion and gay marriage. One true premise of this assessment is that the LCWR, the organization, is not focusing enough time or energy on those two issues - it says nothing of individual sisters or individual communities. It is true, the LCWR doesn't have any links or support for prolife causes and their relationship with NETWORK is problematic. I do agree with the author though that it doesn't sit well for me to be assessed for [i]not [/i]focusing on something. First, each community is called to a particular work. There wasn't a need in America like there is now for communities to be founded to particularly work for pro life causes because many were founded before Roe v. Wade. Traditionally many communities were founded to do the more "social work" type of ministries because that was what was needed when they were founded - to care for the sick, to house the homeless, to educate the children and immigrants - these ministries have evolved but are still essentially have the same focus as when they were founded.

I also think the other point in the article that was valid was that perhaps the way the Church is going about this and the timing of it was not the most wise. The bishops have lost a lot of credibility with women religious recently in terms or moral leadership. That doesn't mean that I hate the Church or that I'm opposed to their institutional leadership but I do think some kind of acknowledgement of wrongs committed against us would go a long way to healing and allowing sisters to accept suggestions by the Church in a spirit of love. Just last week during the sex abuse trial in my diocese a sister was summoned who testified that she was fired from her position of principal when she reported to the diocese, to a bishop, a priest who was molesting one of her students. She was right, and he continued to molest that child and others because she was ignored. These things are unpleasant but they need to be addressed for healing to happen. This isn't being disobedient - it is being human. Sisters are suspicious because they've been hurt before... not because they hate the Church. We are humans.

There is, as always, much more that could be said about this issue and again, this is just my personal perspective which continues to change as more information is available. Please continue to pray for all of us.

[Papist]

Am I wrong, but isn't the LCWR's theology, their delivery of Church teachings and political causes that is under assessment, and not their works of charity.

[Sister Marie]

You are correct Papist. One of the political/Church teaching issues that was brought up is their [i]lack of emphasis[/i] on pro - life issues like abortion.

"The documentation reveals that, while there has been a great deal of work on the part of LCWR
promoting issues of social justice in harmony with the Church’s social doctrine, it is [u]silent[/u] on
the right to life from conception to natural death, a question that is part of the lively public
debate about abortion and euthanasia in the United States." - from the doctrinal assessment document

I was addressing why they might not be overly focused (silent) on that issue based on the member community charisms and apostolates which were focused from their foundation on social justice issues like; teaching the immigrants, caring for the sick, pushing for workers rights... Abortion wasn't a big political issue until Roe v. Wade and most of these communities were founded way before that and don't have that kind of work in their background, their charism, their spirituality, their apostolate.

The distinction being made in the article also is that in this particular issue they are being assessed for something that is not being addressed vs. being assessed for something that was said or asserted incorrectly. There is a definite interesting distinction there.

[dominicansoul]

[quote]The bishops have lost a lot of credibility with women religious recently in terms or moral leadership. That doesn't mean that I hate the Church or that I'm opposed to their institutional leadership but I do think some kind of acknowledgement of wrongs committed against us would go a long way to healing and allowing sisters to accept suggestions by the Church in a spirit of love.[/quote]

I just want to point out that not ALL women religious feel this way about their bishops...

As far as "accept suggestions by the Church in a spirit of love..." the Vatican isn't [i]suggesting[/i] the LCWR reform, they are [i]telling[/i] them to reform for the salvation of their souls. Growing up, our parents didn't [i]suggest[/i] we clean our rooms, behave, stay away from trouble, our parents [i]told[/i] us we had to. It is the same here. Holy Mother Church has been more than patient with the LCWR. It is with great charity that the Church has allowed these sisters all this time since Vatican II to reform and change and embrace orthodoxy. It is up to the group to accept the reforms or probably end up in some sort of schismatic situation (God forbid...)

If the LCWR feel somehow that they have been framed, hurt, forced to submit to what they consider the bad ol' all-male dominant hierarchy---this DOES NOT give them reason to live in heterodoxy. It is not the all-male hierarchy Religious Sisters live for, but for JESUS CHRIST and His Church. This means to respect the authority Jesus has given to the all-male hierarchy the Sisters have trouble with...

I know it isn't as easy as it sounds, but its not impossible, especially if you are serving Jesus Christ with your total life...

Personally, do I want these sisters to get lost and leave the Church in droves? Not me. I live for what Holy Mother Church exists for: the salvation of souls. This is the Church's primary mission. This is its greatest act of charity. I want good, holy, strong women religious in the Church, but they are only as strong as their faithfulness to Jesus Christ and His Holy Church. They cannot say "Well, we serve Jesus in serving the poor in acts of charity," and yet be grossly heterodox and disobedient to the teachings of the Magisterium and those Christ has placed in authority in the Church. You are either with Him or against Him. And this is what I hope and pray for, that the LCWR quits looking at the wrongs of the hierarchy and starts looking within at their own errors and humbly correct them and embrace the reform for the good of the Church and the good of themselves...

[cmotherofpirl]

Ok I not sure how to explain this, but what I seem to be picking up on in various articles written by religious women is a sense of victimhood,: the male heirarchy is our enemy, its US vs THEM mentality, a feeling that the women religious flourish in spite of their relationship to the bishops. Everyone in life is victimized eventually by someone in a position of power somewhere along the line, but for some it seems to have crystalized into entrenched positions. It seems for some that there is a lack of respect on both sides.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1336657845' post='2429416']
I just want to point out that not ALL women religious feel this way about their bishops...

As far as "accept suggestions by the Church in a spirit of love..." the Vatican isn't [i]suggesting[/i] the LCWR reform, they are [i]telling[/i] them to reform for the salvation of their souls. Growing up, our parents didn't [i]suggest[/i] we clean our rooms, behave, stay away from trouble, our parents [i]told[/i] us we had to. It is the same here. Holy Mother Church has been more than patient with the LCWR. It is with great charity that the Church has allowed these sisters all this time since Vatican II to reform and change and embrace orthodoxy. It is up to the group to accept the reforms or probably end up in some sort of schismatic situation (God forbid...)

If the LCWR feel somehow that they have been framed, hurt, forced to submit to what they consider the bad ol' all-male dominant hierarchy---this DOES NOT give them reason to live in heterodoxy. It is not the all-male hierarchy Religious Sisters live for, but for JESUS CHRIST and His Church. This means to respect the authority Jesus has given to the all-male hierarchy the Sisters have trouble with...

I know it isn't as easy as it sounds, but its not impossible, especially if you are serving Jesus Christ with your total life...

Personally, do I want these sisters to get lost and leave the Church in droves? Not me. I live for what Holy Mother Church exists for: the salvation of souls. This is the Church's primary mission. This is its greatest act of charity. I want good, holy, strong women religious in the Church, but they are only as strong as their faithfulness to Jesus Christ and His Holy Church. They cannot say "Well, we serve Jesus in serving the poor in acts of charity," and yet be grossly heterodox and disobedient to the teachings of the Magisterium and those Christ has placed in authority in the Church. You are either with Him or against Him. And this is what I hope and pray for, that the LCWR quits looking at the wrongs of the hierarchy and starts looking within at their own errors and humbly correct them and embrace the reform for the good of the Church and the good of themselves...
[/quote]

Dominicansoul, I think you are reading what I am writing as a defense of the LCWR instead of an explanation of the situation they are in. I am trying my best as a sister to try to flesh out the "why" for myself and I'm sharing what I've learned and experienced here. Why is all of this happening? Why are the reactions so strong? Why is there so much anger and hurt on all sides? The "why" is what I am trying to explain NOT whether the bishops or sisters are right or wrong. Whatever a person's stance is on the LCWR it is important to understand the "why" of it all because external obedience means nothing without conversion of heart. In order to have true conversion a person, or in this case an organization, must be able to look deeply at themselves and their circumstances, the "why" of what is happening, and they have to find reconciliation and forgiveness. Obviously, the sisters need help doing this and it is a good thing that they are receiving that help.

I'm very glad that some sisters have not experienced the painful and immoral encounters with bishops that others have. I wish none of us ever had. Ignoring it doesn't make it better though. Pretending it didn't happen doesn't make it better. It also doesn't make it okay to be disobedient but I never said that either... I was just trying to explain the "why" of what has happened in religious life.

I can't help but notice that there have been many times recently that I have tried simply to provide some background and perspective only to receive a rebuttal or correction from you. Please believe me that I am sincerely sorry if I am offending you, have offended you, or have done something to hurt you. I'm not against you and I don't think I disagree with you on a factual or moral basis. I am not an earth-mother-worshipping yoga-pant wearing hippie nun. I believe everything the Church teaches and am faithful to her. I'm just trying to cut through the hype, the anger, and the meanness to understand what has happened because I hope and pray that that is what the bishop will be doing with the sisters - not ordering them around but compassionately walking and guiding them to truth. He can't do that if he chooses to ignore the hurt that exists and has every right to exist.

It's nice to be "right" but being "right" doesn't save souls. Love saves souls and true love is willing to step into the suffering of another, to heal wounds, to forgive, to reconcile, to get into the mess that is our human condition and to journey with us. It's what Jesus did when he became man, lived among us, and suffered and died for us so that we could have life with and in Him. I truly believe that the bishop will be a figure of Christ for the sisters and will do these things. My only intention has been to explain why it's so difficult and why we are in this position.

[dominicansoul]

Its not about you, Sister, as much as it is my concern with most of the posts concerrning the LCWR. Anyone who shares legitimate concerns about their heterodoxy are somehow labeled as not being charitable, nor spreading love. Never have I mentioned that we should yank these sisters by the hair and drag them screaming against their wills to reform. This is probably what they feel like, but the Church isn't doing that. This call for their reform is a very loving charitable action. I know that they don't recognize it for now, but hopefully, with continued prayer, they will see it as it truly is.

When I was a Sister, my community and I watched a mini-series on St. Teresa of Avila. God called her to reform a very laxed Carmelite Order. That was NOT received well at all by the Carmelites! There were riots in the convents by the sisters! It was even worse for the male branches, where the Carmelite reformers were always beaten and even almost killed! So I can understand the sensitivies that pervade throughout the boards when it comes to such a subject.

I, myself am never right. God is always right. His righteousness is what saves souls. His righteousness is what lives and breathes through our Holy Mother Church, and it is His righteousness working through his ministers that brings souls to salvation.

I believe the Holy Spirit chose Bishop Sartain to head this reform, and he, along with the LCWR are in great need of prayers. I pray that the Holy Spirit possess all involved and that His will be done.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1336673356' post='2429480']
Dominicansoul, I think you are reading what I am writing as a defense of the LCWR instead of an explanation of the situation they are in. I am trying my best as a sister to try to flesh out the "why" for myself and I'm sharing what I've learned and experienced here. Why is all of this happening? Why are the reactions so strong? Why is there so much anger and hurt on all sides? The "why" is what I am trying to explain NOT whether the bishops or sisters are right or wrong. Whatever a person's stance is on the LCWR it is important to understand the "why" of it all because external obedience means nothing without conversion of heart. In order to have true conversion a person, or in this case an organization, must be able to look deeply at themselves and their circumstances, the "why" of what is happening, and they have to find reconciliation and forgiveness. Obviously, the sisters need help doing this and it is a good thing that they are receiving that help.

I'm very glad that some sisters have not experienced the painful and immoral encounters with bishops that others have. I wish none of us ever had. Ignoring it doesn't make it better though. Pretending it didn't happen doesn't make it better. It also doesn't make it okay to be disobedient but I never said that either... I was just trying to explain the "why" of what has happened in religious life.

I can't help but notice that there have been many times recently that I have tried simply to provide some background and perspective only to receive a rebuttal or correction from you. Please believe me that I am sincerely sorry if I am offending you, have offended you, or have done something to hurt you. I'm not against you and I don't think I disagree with you on a factual or moral basis. I am not an earth-mother-worshipping yoga-pant wearing hippie nun. I believe everything the Church teaches and am faithful to her. I'm just trying to cut through the hype, the anger, and the meanness to understand what has happened because I hope and pray that that is what the bishop will be doing with the sisters - not ordering them around but compassionately walking and guiding them to truth. He can't do that if he chooses to ignore the hurt that exists and has every right to exist.

It's nice to be "right" but being "right" doesn't save souls. Love saves souls and true love is willing to step into the suffering of another, to heal wounds, to forgive, to reconcile, to get into the mess that is our human condition and to journey with us. It's what Jesus did when he became man, lived among us, and suffered and died for us so that we could have life with and in Him. I truly believe that the bishop will be a figure of Christ for the sisters and will do these things. My only intention has been to explain why it's so difficult and why we are in this position.
[/quote]

By the same token, I wonder what the bishops themselves feel? A fair number of them have inherited this mess, might not ever had a cross word with any women religious, and are viewed with suspicion and mistrust by virtue of their gender and position instead of a colleague.

[Guest Siobhan]

It is unrealistic for the LCWR to go secular. How would they support themselves? People who give to these Orders are giving to the Church. The Church is a 501(c)(3) charitable organization under the tax code, and contributions are tax deductible. A secular organization certainly can file to be a charitable non-profit, but they are not going to draw the level of support that the Church draws. They would be out of business before they all died of old age.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Outsider seems a sad comment to make towards officials appointed by the Pope. I wonder what has begrieved these sisters to make such a statement , i hope it is sorted out peaceably with faith,hope and love.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1336506817' post='2428791']
This has been a generally good discussion so far and I'm really glad that people are taking it for what it is... one woman's opinion. Maybe you could entertain another?

I just would like to take this opportunity to redirect from all the fiery and emotional statements being made around the net, which surely Sister Joan's are as well, from each side of this issue. Obviously, this is a highly emotional time for ALL sisters - LCWR or not, and for the Church as a whole. We are living at a time in the Church where there is a lot; good and bad, happening. The Church is not a museum made to store all the beautiful artifacts of our faith but the living Body of Christ which must continually evolve and live with these changes within and from the world around us. The sex abuse scandal, Vatican II, the internet, the globalization of communication (just the fact that I can talk to all of you right now and we have never, that I know of, met!), women's rights, etc., have all affected us, the religious, as well as the laity. When our lives are framed this way, every faithful person has to find a way to "make sense" of the hypocrisies, dual-isms, changes, movements, and let-downs IN LIGHT OF our faith in Jesus and within the Church. This is no easy task! It takes a lot of time, a lot of searching, and sometimes a lot of pain. And not everyone gets it right all the time. There isn't always an easy answer in a book. Unfortunately, we cannot travel to the future and see what things will be like after we make a decision. We do the best with what we have and where we are and we sometimes fall.

I say all of this because I think, after reading many commentaries and many blogs and many different sources of news on this newest development, we need to think about what we hope the product is of this action by the Church?

Do we want to punish the religious we have judged to be "wrong"? If so, go ahead and post things about them going to hell. Write that they abandoned the Church. Write that they spit in the face of Christ. Write that they are not real religious. You will have produced the reaction you wanted but the sisters will be no closer to the Church.

Do we want these sisters to suffer for whatever sins we think they have committed? If so, then let's point out everything they do wrong and call them names and ignore any good they have ever done in the world.

You see, I don't really believe that anyone in the Church wants the above things! In my "making sense" of our problems and our struggles, I HAVE to believe that we all, the Church, want good things for one another. We love one another enough to do what we can to help one another.

So, if you belong in the group that I think most of you do, you want these sisters to be more of a part of our Church... you want them to feel the love of God within the Church and to be converted and transformed by this love... you want them to continue the good works they have been doing while working on their life... you want them to learn and to grow... you want them to be healed of whatever caused them to reject parts of their life before ...

If that is what you want, then the way to help is not to be a political activist, not to be a theologian who knows all the right answers, but to love. Tell them with your words and actions that they are vital to the life of the Church but not how they are now. Tell them that you are grateful for all the good they have done but that they need to rethink some of their theology. Tell them that you are grateful for the gift of their consecrated life but that you would love it if you could more easily see them. Tell them that the Church needs their charism but that it would make more of an impact if they lived and worked together. Tell them that you love and care for them as your sisters and you just want them to be closer to you in faith.

I went to a workshop one time where a sister said, "Talking at someone doesn't change them, experiences change people." An experience or many experiences and their responses made them the people they are today. Experiences are what will allow them to change and move again. The experience of a sister reading a blog that is trashing her community will not make her want to change. The experience of a sister reading a blog that states the above... that has potential for transformation and conversion.

On a practical note... I highly doubt the majority of communities would ever be willing to follow a secularization of LCWR. Remember LCWR doesn't govern individual communities - none of their members have to believe a thing they say and many don't believe most. However, they are a provider of resources (both practical and spiritual) so that is why many communities stay.

Anyway... I know I write too much (I've already been told!) but I was eager to just express both my thanks that this has been such a life-giving dialogue so far and to help shape it so that if a sister comes along she sees the love and care of the Church for her instead of condemnation. That includes Sister Joan.

[i]edited for sentence structure[/i]
[/quote]

ALLELUIA ALLELUIA ALLELUIA. The truth to say such things to one at fault to love an enemy, oh how bitter the truth in humiliation, but sweet when we digest it. The way you have said all this makes me realise that it is not me to be bitter to another and scare them into submission(which i seem to do at times) but to counsel with faith,hope and love which is a really hard pill to swallow when everything inside says ring there neck, god bless you sister marie.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Papist]

[url="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/tim-drake/when-reverend-mothers-cease-being-motherly"]http://www.ncregister.com/blog/tim-drake/when-reverend-mothers-cease-being-motherly[/url]

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