Does Catholicism Make Life Better, Worse, Or Have No Effect - From A M

[Theresita Nerita]

I had an argument with a Catholic friend yesterday about the question: when you choose to live completely for God, are you choosing to make the material, human aspects of your life better, worse, or stay the same?

Background info: I am more of an intellectual/rational Catholic, while he's more of a dreamer/charismatic type.

He was telling me that he truly believes that if you follow God, you should also enjoy improved life: health (or improved health for your family members and friends via your prayer and healing), more attractiveness, accomplish more professionally/artistically/athletically, etc. He had 3 arguments for this:

1) Jesus healed people, fed them, in short, improved the material aspects of their lives.
2) The lilies of the field thing implies that God will take care of your material needs if you trust in Him, because he loves us and doesn't want our lives to be unhappy
3) We should be able to "move mountains" if we have faith the size of a mustard seed.

I, on the other hand, argue that the choice to follow God is the choice that leads to Calvary, and if it had anything to do with material well-being, Jesus and ALL the saints wouldn't have ended up being roasted on spits/crucified/crucified upside down/dead of TB at age 24. I think choosing God is choosing a more difficult, less comfortable life. In fact, I think it often destroys your life, by any [i]human [/i]standard, while improving it only from an eternal, divine point of view. My arguments:

1) The lives of pretty much all the saints, with very few exceptions, were super difficult.
2) There's a reason why St. Paul doesn't say "the fruits of the spirit are health, wealth, artistic accomplishment, athletic ability, long life, and attractiveness to the opposite sex." He says they're "patience, joy, love" etc.
3) Holiness involves seeking "the lowest place." See further: the beatitudes, "the last shall be first" etc.
4) The book of Job

Anyone have any more educated ideas about this? Thanks, you smart, smart pham.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Theresita Nerita

[MissyP89]

I think it's a bit of both. There are moments where having God in my life is my only source of comfort and peace. But there are other moments where things are infinitely more complicated. My relationships suffer at times, I worry more, I'm more frustrated.

So in many ways, both of you are right. But the spiritual life has ups and downs for all of us. It's neither all bad or all good.

Too, attitude helps a lot.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Theresita Nerita' timestamp='1336415256' post='2428151']
I, on the other hand, argue that the choice to follow God is the choice that leads to Calvary, and if it had anything to do with material well-being, Jesus and ALL the saints wouldn't have ended up being roasted on spits/crucified/crucified upside down/dead of TB at age 24. I think choosing God is choosing a more difficult, less comfortable life. In fact, I think it often destroys your life, by any [i]human [/i]standard, while improving it only from an eternal, divine point of view. [/quote]

Just wanted to make one simple point:

Calvary leads to the Resurrection. And it doesn't mean necessarily in the afterlife.

What I mean is that there will be areas in our lives that, when you decide to follow Jesus, you end up going through a sort of Calvary. Things that you have to let go of. Things that must change. But what is the end result -- a resurrection.

Think of a person who is caught in the midst of some particular mortal sin. A sin that has been habitual and has to be broken.

This person's Calvary is the process of breaking free from sin ... is is a "death provoking" process, a process that hits you to the core.

But -- and here is the wonderful part -- once that process is over, and you are free from that area of sin, it is as if you've come to life. It *is* a resurrection of sorts.

I sort of agree with what MissyP says -- walking with Jesus is both. It is at times "Calvary" and it is at times "Resurrection." Just realize though that we're not called to stay in "Calvary" for life ... that there is a hope (and reality) of the Resurrection; even in those areas (ex: a terminal disease) where it seems as though the end result is a death via Calvary. And when you hit areas of Resurrection in your life, guess what -- there is abundant blessing, grace, peace, joy, etc.

Finally a challenge (just a thought to make you think about your relationship with the Lord -- not to criticize, nor to say "you're wrong, but to help):

In your life ... can you identify areas that were Calvaries that became Resurrection? Or, are you at a point where it seems as if you're in a habitual Calvary? If the later is the case, maybe ask the Lord to reveal what needs to happen so that you can move to a Resurrection space.

Hopefully I made some sense

Blessings.

[Spem in alium]

For a very long time - since ancient times - people have believed that there is a higher power, something beyond themselves. Such a belief provides direction, grounding, understanding of humanity's place in the world and of its potential and future. But it can also lead to sentiments of uncertainty, irritation and potential abandonment.
The views expressed by yourself and your friend both bear some validity. Though I am a rational person in general, my faith takes more of an "idealistic" focus. So while I am more inclined to appreciate your friend's sentiments, I also relate to your views.

Belief in God has its benefits. I can't even imagine where I would be or what life would be like for me if I denied, doubted or never knew God. My faith provides me with a strength and a hope that I don't receive from anywhere else. I have searched for comfort through other means, but have never obtained it as completely as I have through God. He directs my actions, my thoughts, my future. My life.

Even though I've been a Catholic for most of my life, I only recently became what I term "consciously Catholic". Previously, it was like I was living in a sort of limbo. I went through all the motions without thinking about them. I never tried to speak with God, I never looked for or sought Christ, and I never thought about or wanted to honour Mary. Realising that I wanted to be Catholic and making the effort to deepen my faith and be closer to God has granted me benefits, but it has also been hard.
My increase in faith has been criticised by Catholics and non-Catholics alike. I have felt abandoned and alone. I have been frustrated, fearful, lost, misguided. I have achieved deep successes, but also deep failures.

Just as cmariadiaz mentioned above, it is important to remember that Calvary leads to the Resurrection. We can be transformed through suffering. To believe in God is not to escape suffering. Just as Christ suffered, just as his Mother and all the saints suffered, so too do we. And we all suffer for the same thing that they did - for love of God, for a desire to bring Him not only into our own lives but into the lives of all we encounter.

Such a thing is, I believe, always worth suffering for.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Theresita Nerita' timestamp='1336415256' post='2428151']
He was telling me that he truly believes that if you follow God, you should also enjoy improved life: health (or improved health for your family members and friends via your prayer and healing), more attractiveness, accomplish more professionally/artistically/athletically, etc. [/quote]

Sound like trademarks of the prosperity gospel... it's a spiritual Ponzi scheme: works great until it stops working.

[quote name='Theresita Nerita' timestamp='1336415256' post='2428151']
He had 3 arguments for this:

1) Jesus healed people, fed them, in short, improved the material aspects of their lives.
2) The lilies of the field thing implies that God will take care of your material needs if you trust in Him, because he loves us and doesn't want our lives to be unhappy
3) We should be able to "move mountains" if we have faith the size of a mustard seed.[/quote]

1) Jesus did not heal everybody.
2) True, however health, attractiveness, and accomplishments are not necessities. Bread and water are necessities (preferably potable water, though one billion people in the world don't have a choice in that minor detail).
3) So pray for the salvation of hearts turned cold to the Gospel in the post-Christian West and for one billion people in the third world to gain access to clean water. And it's fine to pray for success in our endeavors, long as we keep in perspective our purpose in serving the Kingdom of God.

[quote name='Theresita Nerita' timestamp='1336415256' post='2428151']
I, on the other hand, argue that the choice to follow God is the choice that leads to Calvary, and if it had anything to do with material well-being, Jesus and ALL the saints wouldn't have ended up being roasted on spits/crucified/crucified upside down/dead of TB at age 24. I think choosing God is choosing a more difficult, less comfortable life. In fact, I think it often destroys your life, by any [i]human [/i]standard, while improving it only from an eternal, divine point of view.[/quote]

Sounds more like it One risk, though, is glorifying persecution for its own sake. Questions were actually raised in the early Church about whether some believers were too eager in seeking martyrdom. May sound ironic, but in the end we should seek to please God, and whatever He gives is meant to be returned in offering. If we receive material blessings, return 10% (or more) to the Church and charity, save responsibly for retirement and emergencies, spend frugally, and tip generously. If we receive tribulations, embrace your share of the cross, pray for perseverence, and pray for your persecutors.

Suffice to say that the challenge for us in the West is treating our material blessings as God's own.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

It depends on the individual and their vocation in my view. There are some who God will bless with good jobs, families, wealth. Look at Job he was allowed to be persecuted in a very difficult way for a long time before these types of blessings came to him. Others fostered in faith and life without ever having these blessings.

[sixpence]

Basically, it will make suffering more bearable, and good things more amesome. I do not think the ratio of suffering/good things is normally affected by faith.

[cmotherofpirl]

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?"
- Romans 2,4

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us."
- Romans 8,18

"For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us: so also by Christ doth our comfort abound."
- 2 Corinthians 1,5

"Now whether we be in tribulation, it is for your exhortation and salvation: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation: or whether we be exhorted, it is for your exhortation and salvation, which worketh the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer."
- 2 Corinthians 1,6

"That our hope for you may be steadfast: knowing that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so shall you be also of the consolation."
- 2 Corinthians 1,7

"In chastity, in knowledge, in longsuffering, in sweetness, in the Holy Ghost, in charity unfeigned,"
- 2 Corinthians 6,6

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death,"
- Philippians 3,10

"Strengthened with all might, according to the power of his glory, in all patience and longsuffering with joy,"
- Colossians 1,11

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:"
- Colossians 1,24

"But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, patience,"
- 2 Timothy 3,10

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God, he might taste death for all."
- Hebrews 2,9

"Take, my brethren, for an example of suffering evil, of labour and patience, the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord."
- James 5,10

"Searching what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them did signify: when it foretold those sufferings that are in Christ, and the glories that should follow:"
- 1 Peter 1,11

"For this is thankworthy, if for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully."
- 1 Peter 2,19

"But if you partake of the sufferings of Christ, rejoice that when his glory shall be revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy."
- 1 Peter 4,13

"The ancients therefore that are among you, I beseech, who am myself also an ancient, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ: as also a partaker of that glory which is to be revealed in time to come:"
- 1 Peter 5,1

[Luigi]

So what exactly is your point, Cmotherofpirl?

[BarbTherese]

I attribute my rescue from all the implications of a serious mental illness, Bipolar Disorder (the second most serious mental illness), to my Catholicism and insight into Catholic theology, gift channeled through the Dominican nuns who taught me and a Vincentian theologian/priest who was my confessor and director for many years post and pre onset of Bipolar. Psychiatry feels also that my Faith was a major contributor to my return to stable mental health after a hazardous 20 year journey of major psychotic episodes. Initially, psychiatry had me written off as "probably a cot case for the rest of her life". I was very ill, very very ill indeed - and consigned to a locked ward of a large psychiatric hospital initially.

Catholicism has only ever enriched my life abundantly and in all areas of life. It has given me something of a unique (in that it is Catholic) perspective and attitude in life towards the whole of life - its joys and its difficulties.

Suffering is intrinsic to the human condition - no one will escape it in some form or other. Catholic theology gifts one with a unique Catholic perspective and attitude that places suffering constructively and positively into the journey of life. Catholcism including Catholic theology does not rob one of compassion towards the sufferings of others, rather it enriches that compassion and expands and enlarges it - a work of Grace primarily sourced through The Mass, The Sacraments and prayer. And the truths and teachings of our Faith and our theology flows from Scripture especially Jesus and His Gospel, flows from it and speaks to it in a continual and living dialogue.

No regrets, not one iota of regret!!! I only wish and pray that I would know how to communicate Catholicism to do it some justice as THE answer to life and its vicissitudes.

In the course of my 20 years journey with serious episodes of Bipolar, my quite affluent marriage broke down and my then husband divorced me (marriage now annulled at my application). My children were taken from me and I went quite literally from riches to rags (complete poverty and abandonment by friends and family and very ill to boot). Worldly type people still regard my journey as nothing but tragic in outcome, since I am still quite poor. What they cannot understand is that in that 20 years journey and after (still unfolding journey) I became detached from the material things of this world to I think perhaps a large degree and found my joy and satisfactions, fulfillment and happiness, in entirely different things to those that I had looked towards prior to onset of Bipolar. While wordly eyes regard my journey as a huge failure, to me it is entirely successful - but only spiritual eyes can insight why. My sons nowadays are very close to me and they suffered appallingly during my years of illness. As did my family who way back 35 years or so ago had the same attitude towards mental illness as society generally then held. And it was an appalling attitude based on stigma and rejection. I am fully reconciled to my family who had a suffering journey of their own.

Edited May 8, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Theresita Nerita]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1336426186' post='2428232']
In your life ... can you identify areas that were Calvaries that became Resurrection? Or, are you at a point where it seems as if you're in a habitual Calvary? If the later is the case, maybe ask the Lord to reveal what needs to happen so that you can move to a Resurrection space.

Hopefully I made some sense

Blessings.
[/quote]

Yes, I think you're right. This is what I needed to hear. Actually, I think my downer view might be due to how nice and easy my life has always been - religion has by and large been the only cause of material suffering in my life: the only poverty i've ever had has been chosen due to my religion, the only "mortification" i've ever experienced has been due to my practice of faith, the only desires I've ever NOT had satisfied have been due to the process of breaking away from sin. Of course it's also been the biggest cause of joy!

My friend on the other hand has all sorts of illness, failure, etc in his life. And yet his view is this idealistic one. I do get annoyed when he occasionally crosses the line into straight-up "prosperity gospel" territory, like when I told him my girl friend had found a lump and he said, "does she eat healthy?" "Yeah she's a vegetarian." "Does she go to church on sundays?" "Yup, every Sunday." And he goes, "Well that doesn't make any sense."

That is the kind of thing I want to avoid. It smacks of "who sinned, this man or his parents?"

[quote name='PadrePioOfPietrelcino' timestamp='1336440819' post='2428399']
It depends on the individual and their vocation in my view.
[/quote]

Yes! This too.

[BarbTherese]

[size=5][sub]During my illness, I prayed daily to be able to lead a normal type of life in the community, rather than live in the revolving door of a psychiatric hospital "but not my will, but Thine be done" - and at least to be able to put my life back together again after each episode. I never even remotely dreamed nor wildly imagined a return to stable mental health. Our God of The Surprise.[/sub][/size]

[size=5][sub]And if anyone had asked me where I was in life 10 years into my illness, I would have thought I was still experiencing my personal Calvary, with no hope of any sort of resurrection, only in prayer for an ability to lead something of a normal life outside of the revolving door of a psychiatric hospital, for my own benefit, but for my sons and family who suffered too. If you asked me where I am today, then all undeservedly, I am experiencing a resurrection from the 'death' that is serious psychotic mental illness. Our God of The Surprise. [/sub]

[sub]Why was I visited with serious mental illness - that is in the Mystery of God - and why did I 'recover' - another Mystery of God. Our God of Surprises. We can only play the cards we are dealt, simply because we have to! And to trust in God and His Love and Mercy - and in all circumstances, no matter the strange garments His Love and Mercy may wear.[/sub][/size]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1336453374' post='2428542']
So what exactly is your point, Cmotherofpirl?
[/quote]

The key word in all those verses is SUFFERING.

[beatitude]

Catholicism makes life richer. This does not necessarily mean easier.

I suffered a serious illness for several years and it could have killed me. My faith couldn't have stopped me from getting ill - such things are all part of the human experience, and Christianity doesn't offer a getaway ticket from our humanity. Catholic, non-Catholic, I would have got sick anyway. But my faith made a tremendous difference to how I experienced that illness. I was able to draw good things out of it, seeing inspiration in Jesus and many of the saints. It was a lesson in trust.

[Vincent Vega]

I think that merely the belief that suffering has redemptive aspects is comfort in its own right, without needing God to remove the suffering entirely.