I Just American't

[Ice_nine]

hey y'all I decided to post this in transmundane because I wanted to avoid a debate, and this topic is potentially flammable.

I used to be ironically anti-American. Not the type to go suicide bombing and writing manifestos about the evils of this great land, but enough to be the prototypical jaded college student type who criticizes but offers no solutions.

It took a while to dawn on me that, I, am American. My family is American. My neighbors and friends and the people I love, most of them are American. And I realized that yes the country has its flaws, but to a certain extent I owe a large part of how I am to where I grew up, even my knack for dissension is quintessentially American.

But still I really have a problem, when people place nationalism over religion, especially Catholics. Aren't we all human? All children of God and all that? Are not we all under the same law? Does it matter that someone was born on that slab of land as opposed to this one?

I see this when I talk about war sometimes. For example, the Iraq war, 100,000 civilians killed . . . and to see Christians, especially Catholics, excuse that, I just don't get it. And then hearing them try to justify the use of atomic weapons? Major say what?! moment.

In summation:
Anyhow I don't want to ramble on too much. I guess my main question is, how does one reconcile patriotism with faith? Is it even possible? And furthermore do you think it's possible that I'm not merely a spoiled brat, bleeding-heart, fluffy bunny hippie liberal, because that can be the response I get when talking about these things sometimes. I mean sure, I love living with the immense sense of safety I have, knowing I can likely take a walk in my neighborhood and not get blown up is great, and that I can dissent and not face immediate and swift execution

but if it's at the expense of others' lives and safety, I don't want it. I don't want to be a leech. I don't want an army to "kill the bad guys" if it means innocent bystanders are just collateral damage.

sorry it's late. Lots of thoughts. Maybe y'alls have some.

[BG45]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1336377557' post='2427982']
I see this when I talk about war sometimes. For example, the Iraq war, 100,000 civilians killed . . . and to see Christians, especially Catholics, excuse that, I just don't get it. And then hearing them try to justify the use of atomic weapons? Major say what?! moment.

In summation:
Anyhow I don't want to ramble on too much. I guess my main question is, how does one reconcile patriotism with faith? Is it even possible? And furthermore do you think it's possible that I'm not merely a spoiled brat, bleeding-heart, fluffy bunny hippie liberal, because that can be the response I get when talking about these things sometimes. I mean sure, I love living with the immense sense of safety I have, knowing I can likely take a walk in my neighborhood and not get blown up is great, and that I can dissent and not face immediate and swift execution

[/quote]

My own personal view on patriotism isn't that we have to necessarily support our nation's wars all the time, but rather that it is my duty to be an informed voter and to give respect where it is due. I pray for our nation and its leaders, even though I often disagree with them. I respect the office that Obama holds, and recognize that a number of factors are beyond his control, but that he has still pushed to enact policies enimical to my own POV. Loving one's country, while cognizant of its flaws, is patriotism in my personal opinion; sort of like how Jesus said that those who did not see and yet believed were blessed, so to are those who recognize the flaws in a place and still love it. That's the vibe I get from your post anyhow, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

And your comment on the Iraq war reminds me of my home state's somewhat recently deceased Senator as he voted against the war. By the time he delivered this speech he was frail, his health had been going downhill for a while, [url="http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/byrd.asp"]but it was among the most fiery of his career[/url] in the last few decades.

[font="Verdana"][size="-1"][quote]The war in Afghanistan has cost us $37 billion so far, yet there is evidence that terrorism may already be starting to regain its hold in that region. We have not found bin Laden, and unless we secure the peace in Afghanistan, the dark dens of terrorism may yet again flourish in that remote and devastated land.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana"][size="-1"]Pakistan as well is at risk of destabilizing forces. This Administration has not finished the first war against terrorism and yet it is eager to embark on another conflict with perils much greater than those in Afghanistan. Is our attention span that short? Have we not learned that after winning the war one must always secure the peace?[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana"][size="-1"]And yet we hear little about the aftermath of war in Iraq. In the absence of plans, speculation abroad is rife. Will we seize Iraq's oil fields, becoming an occupying power which controls the price and supply of that nation's oil for the foreseeable future? To whom do we propose to hand the reigns of power after Saddam Hussein?[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana"][size="-1"]....[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana"][size="-1"][font="Verdana"][size="-1"]Yet this chamber is hauntingly silent. On what is possibly the eve of horrific infliction of death and destruction on the population of the nation of Iraq -- a population, I might add, of which over 50% is under age 15 -- this chamber is silent. On what is possibly only days before we send thousands of our own citizens to face unimagined horrors of chemical and biological warfare -- this chamber is silent. On the eve of what could possibly be a vicious terrorist attack in retaliation for our attack on Iraq, it is business as usual in the United States Senate.[/size][/font][/size][/font]
[font="Verdana"][size="-1"] [/size][/font]
[font="Verdana"][size="-1"][font="Verdana"][size="-1"]We are truly "sleepwalking through history." In my heart of hearts I pray that this great nation and its good and trusting citizens are not in for a rudest of awakenings.[/quote][/size][/font][/size][/font]

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1336377557' post='2427982']
hey y'all I decided to post this in transmundane because I wanted to avoid a debate, and this topic is potentially flammable.

I used to be ironically anti-American. Not the type to go suicide bombing and writing manifestos about the evils of this great land, but enough to be the prototypical jaded college student type who criticizes but offers no solutions.[/quote]



I don't think you were anti-American as much as you were just that: the prototypical jaded college student who criticizes. Its okay to criticize, especially since that is one of our basic freedoms.

[quote]It took a while to dawn on me that, I, am American. My family is American. My neighbors and friends and the people I love, most of them are American. And I realized that yes the country has its flaws, but to a certain extent I owe a large part of how I am to where I grew up, even my knack for dissension is quintessentially American.

But still I really have a problem, when people place nationalism over religion, especially Catholics. Aren't we all human? All children of God and all that? Are not we all under the same law? Does it matter that someone was born on that slab of land as opposed to this one?[/quote]



I'm with you on this. It always has bothered me that one group of catholics will back our bishops when they speak against abortion, but then they fall out when it comes to what the bishops have to say about immigration and the death penalty. I really really hate it when these same groups of catholics place political labels on these bishops and even on the Church. Its totally ridiculous. We shouldn't be following a political ideology, but instead, follow what the Church actually teaches. Go beyond what is our own politicial point of view and try to see what our good Bishops are talking about...they are teaching us important lessons...

[quote]I see this when I talk about war sometimes. For example, the Iraq war, 100,000 civilians killed . . . and to see Christians, especially Catholics, excuse that, I just don't get it. And then hearing them try to justify the use of atomic weapons? Major say what?! moment.[/quote]



I think catholics could take lessons in just-war theory. And we certainly need to speak out against unnecessary actions in war i.e. the atomic bomb. The Japanese people who were affected by the bombs learned to accept it as an offering of oblation to God to end the war. I sure struggle to see how God could have been pleased with us for dropping them. I struggle even more when catholics are all gung-ho about what happened, as if they are happy for what the japanese people suffered...I guess we will always debate it.

[quote]In summation:
Anyhow I don't want to ramble on too much. I guess my main question is, how does one reconcile patriotism with faith? Is it even possible? And furthermore do you think it's possible that I'm not merely a spoiled brat, bleeding-heart, fluffy bunny hippie liberal, because that can be the response I get when talking about these things sometimes. [/quote]

you get called a liberal because people don't even know what the proper definition of liberal is. I get this on the board too. I don't like to label myself as liberal or conservative. I go by one label: Catholic. I try to live my life by my Catholic Faith, not by some political ideology. I think you try to do the same. If people think you are liberal because you have a problem with the way we treat others in war, let them label you as such, you are just being catholic...

...and do criticize the country when she is in error....it makes you a great patriot...but you go beyond that, you are a good [i]catholic[/i] patriot.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

I understand what you are saying...I've had to struggle with the fact that I enlisted in the military during a period of unjust war. I look at it in the following manner...In a parallel relationship wee can understand that even tho there have been periods of history when those who were IN the church, and in some cases held positions of authority in the church...they themselves are not the church. We can still be faithful to the church and it's teachings even if we have some bad examples trying to lead us. I believe that our Constitution is set up in such a way that when interpreted conservatively (not as in the political party...but cautiously and prudently) it can protect the values that individuals and society hold dear. Just think that both Education and Hospitals were set up privately and operated fruitfully long before the Federal Government got involved. When it comes to my service in the military even tho the war is unjust...I can still support my country and my military (I'm a medic BTW). I am a servant of the people I have decided to give up part of my free will to show my love for those around me. When those I serve reject their ability to vote responsibly, to use me in a way that is beneficial for all they have chosen to abuse the gift of myself that I am willing to give. I will still serve and love, because that is what I have said I will do.

I can serve my country I can be proud to be an American because I can accept that the country does not always do the best at living it's own values, but I have HOPE in our future. I can do the best I can to encourage those around me to be good Americans.

As well I struggle with the unjustness of the start of the wars. Having been there I do know that many people in Iraq WERE indeed appreciative of us being there. many I worked side by side with, and even helped train medically had wanted us there. I also know that the US takes great pains to protect civilian lives and property to a point that it can sometimes hinder a mission. I can not tell you how much soldiers I were with were grieved when a village was bombed for agreeing with the U.S. instead of the insurgents fighting us. I remember a day in which one such village was bombed...the local hospital was getting over run with patients one man seeing this put his injured wife and daughter in his truck and drove 45 Km to come to us for help. By the time he arrived his wife had died...his daughter was not well off. The medics put his daughter in one of our ambulances and started to drive to our clinic another 10km away. in route she died too. the ambulance had to turn around and give the body back to the already grieving husband...Did the U.S. cause this by being there in the first place? It is easy to say so, but we also need to look at the world they were living in before. The Kurds were mass bombed in the North. If you belonged to the wrong sect of Islam you were not welcome in the neighboring village...it was not peaceful.

I feel like I'm rambling, but In short yes I do believe that someone can be BOTH patriotic and Catholic. I think the heart and understanding one approaches the issue with is the key.

[PhuturePriest]

The true patriot wants what God wants for his or her own country. I am a bit "gung-ho" about being American and I wanted to join the Army for the longest time (Though I do love Ireland and England more), essentially I am not an American, I am not German, I am Catholic. This is the staple-point of me and I am glad about it. I am a Catholic that lives in America. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, the country would probably see me as a threat. I do not have any ties here. I do not swear allegiance to the United States of America. I swear my allegiance to God and his one, true, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church (Did I get that in the right order?). This is not to say loving your country more than others is a bad thing. Saint Edmund Campion was a very big patriot and loved his country very much. But ultimately we must all remember every country has its flaws, every country will fall short of God's standards, and almost every country will turn away completely from God at one point. This is why it is so important not to become too attached to ones' country. Some put their country over God and his Church, and they support unjust wars just for the sake of patriotism. However, as stated, true patriotism is wanting what God wants, not what your public officials want as they become overzealous about their country's particular flag. We must all become true patriots, and I pray that our society learns this before it is too late.