Music Nerds Assemble!

[missionseeker]

Ok, so I have been looking through my books, notes, and google and I'm right. That 24 hours thing is BS. The human body was not built to do anything that long. Especially not sing. Anything I can find says that a highschool student in training should be able to sing about 3 hours before feeling too much strain. HOWEVER, that applies to highschool students who have been singing for a while AND who spend 10 minutes MINIMUM warming up. Warming up does not include the stretches that a person should do to relax the muscles and release tension in the shoulders and neck. There are also face and tongue exercises.


[url="http://www.patwilson.com.au/Straws.pdf"]http://www.patwilson.com.au/Straws.pdf[/url]


this I just found interesting. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MDn5GgyxyU&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MDn5GgyxyU&feature=related[/url]

[AnneLine]

Future Priest,

I've got a pretty good voice, and I have done a lot of singing, but not a lot of formal college-level music training, so I defer to those who have more training & background. They may correct or comment on what I am saying.

I know you are a teen, so be really careful with your voice. When I was in high school I was VERY blessed to sing in a San Francisco Church choir that was supported by an octet from the SF Opera. They were very willing to work with those of us who had no formal training but wanted to learn, and they helped us to learn to read music and to learn the basics of singing properly so we wouldn't strain or damage our still-developing voices.

I know you know that a man's voice change during teenage years; I was surprised (and pretty upset, frankly!) when mine started doing odd things! After it cracked a few times while I was singing, one of the female singers took me aside and stressed to me that if I was straining or stressing, it was really important NOT to push that part of my voice. I might be able to slowly develop it, but I could damage it if I tried to hurry the process.

AND, a few months after that, because my voice was acting sooooo odd on some of the higher notes, I was actually encouraged to sing for one year in the alto range rather than the soprano parts that I had been singing ... in order to give that part of my voice a rest. While I hated it, because I found them boring, It proved to be invaluable --- I learned more about sight reading because I HAD to learn the parts to many pieces that I knew well as a soprano... and learn them within a very short time. I learned how to develop my lower and higher range carefully and slowly. After a 6 month rest, I was able to go SLOWLY back into the areas that had been causing problems, and there was no further problem.

So.... take it slowly and don't push it. OK?

Edited May 2, 2012 by AnneLine

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1335943880' post='2425998']
Future Priest,

I've got a pretty good voice, and I have done a lot of singing, but not a lot of formal college-level music training, so I defer to those who have more training & background. They may correct or comment on what I am saying.

I know you are a teen, so be really careful with your voice. When I was in high school I was VERY blessed to sing in a San Francisco Church choir that was supported by an octet from the SF Opera. They were very willing to work with those of us who had no formal training but wanted to learn, and they helped us to learn to read music and to learn the basics of singing properly so we wouldn't strain or damage our still-developing voices.

I know you know that a man's voice change during teenage years; I was surprised (and pretty upset, frankly!) when mine started doing odd things! After it cracked a few times while I was singing, one of the female singers took me aside and stressed to me that if I was straining or stressing, it was really important NOT to push that part of my voice. I might be able to slowly develop it, but I could damage it if I tried to hurry the process.

AND, a few months after that, because my voice was acting sooooo odd on some of the higher notes, I was actually encouraged to sing for one year in the alto range rather than the soprano parts that I had been singing ... in order to give that part of my voice a rest. While I hated it, because I found them boring, It proved to be invaluable --- I learned more about sight reading because I HAD to learn the parts to many pieces that I knew well as a soprano... and learn them within a very short time. I learned how to develop my lower and higher range carefully and slowly. After a 6 month rest, I was able to go SLOWLY back into the areas that had been causing problems, and there was no further problem.

So.... take it slowly and don't push it. OK?
[/quote]

But... But... Does that mean no more U2's Elevation: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lCXB_68VfQ[/media]
? But... I love singing that song! I can even hit the incredibly high notes (Though I noted my voice tended to give out today when I sang them, meaning I should skip that part and sing the rest of the song instead)! Oh, sad day...

I never actually learned any warm-up techniques. I usually just sing an easy song (Like Elevation, save for the high parts). Are there any good techniques you guys can recommend?

And thanks for the list, missionseeker, though the no pop and no milk part depresses me without end. I do drink way too much pop anyway. Perhaps singing is going to be the thing that saves me from diabetes at the age of sixteen?

Edited May 3, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1335843495' post='2425518']
What she said, or you can just stop trying to sing like Bruce Dickenson, the guy is dubbed the "Air Raid Siren".
[/quote]

He doesn't go that high in the newer stuff. Some parts of songs like the intro to Brave New World go way, way too deep for me. I bet I can't even hit some of those low notes. Though I do suppose this means no more singing the Piece Of Mind and Somewhere In Time albums. All in all: Absolutely depressing. However, I still have the pleasure of being able to sing U2 well.

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1335843204' post='2425516']
I've never actually heard that humans were made to be able to speak of sing for 24 hours without feeling strain, and honestly it doesn't make sense because humans were not made to do ANYTHING for 24 hours without feeling strain. Granted that is just my initial reaction with no knowledge of the accuracy of that particular comment.

However, you should be able to sing or speak for normal amounts of time without feeling strain (or even amounts of time that you consider to be a lot). Also, I would guess that this ...information is based on the fact that NO OTHER environmental figures are factoring in, like allergies, illness,stress, fatigue (which is why I think the whole "talk for 24 hours" thing is pure BS)

As a vocalist, half of the stuff we do is to prevent or nurse strained vocal chords: warm ups, position of the head, neck, tongue, back, shoulders, and abdomen. It's tough, sometimes. When I was singing regularly, I had a six pack. I would say that if you are struggling with strain on the outer reaches of your range, do LOTS of warming up before attempting to sing that. I hope that the person you are working with has experience with how the singing apparatuses in the human body actually work anatomically and physiologically. The position of the head and neck is extremely important as well. If you are holding your head wrong, the muscles are distorted, causing strain. (Which is what the stuff USAir posted is dealing with)
[/quote]

Yeah, I have no clue how to do any of this stuff. I've never been taught anything on posture or even warm-ups. I don't technically have a teacher, I just asked my sister's fiancee who can sing really well and has taken classes if I was good and he said I was, though he wants me to do lower notes (Though I don't know why. I can go two keys below Middle C on up past an entire octave) and simply told me to practice songs with lower vocals, which strains my voice so I don't do it often. I'm going to buy a book or two on singing such as Singing For Dummies which has good reviews, though I know nothing beats a real teacher. Sadly I don't know any professional teachers.

But really, no cold drinks? Not even cold water? What's wrong with cold water? I like my drinks ice cold. This isn't going to be fun...

[MissyP89]

Warmups...

Sing the first half of a scale, starting with a note that feels very comfortable in your chest. Do-re-mi-fa-sol... And then back down: ...fa-mi-re-do. You can do "la"s, or one sustained "ah/aw" tone.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqVzi36AlNA[/media]

This starts in a woman's range, obviously. You should drop it down one octave. The bottom note the piano gives before each scale begins is what you should be singing.

Edited May 3, 2012 by MissyP89

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1336012745' post='2426360']
Warmups...

Sing the first half of a scale, starting with a note that feels very comfortable in your chest. Do-re-mi-fa-sol... And then back down: ...fa-mi-re-do. You can do "la"s, or one sustained "ah/aw" tone.

This starts in a woman's range, obviously. You should drop it down one octave. The bottom note the piano gives before each scale begins is what you should be singing.
[/quote]

A woman's range, you say? Because My voice range is from two keys to the left of Middle C on up to the right past an octave, so I suppose I have a woman's range, though I believe that's called a tenor 2 more officially. Most of the bands I listen to have male vocalists (In fact, they're usually all-male. I can't think of one that has a female, to be honest) and they're all mostly tenor 2's, or whichever tenor is the higher one of the two.

Yeah, the first note it plays is way, way too low for me. To help you figure out my voice range, this song is perfect for my range, even the very high notes:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJh_0flD9-8[/media]
And this is way, way too low. I couldn't even dream of hitting these notes:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmSdTa9kaiQ&ob=av2n[/media]

I can hit the notes of the chorus and the "Ho, oh oh oh!" part, and even the "And you give yourself away" part, but even the last part of that note is pushing it for me. I just don't have a deep voice. I suppose I will once my voice fully develops, but for now I'm singing like Bono (Except on songs like the one above) and The Air Raid Siren.

Edited May 3, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[MissyP89]

I can hit those notes.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1336013649' post='2426374']
A woman's range, you say? Because My voice range is from two keys to the left of Middle C on up to the right past an octave, so I suppose I have a woman's range, though I believe that's called a tenor 2 more officially. Most of the bands I listen to have male vocalists (In fact, they're usually all-male. I can't think of one that has a female, to be honest) and they're all mostly tenor 2's, or whichever tenor is the higher one of the two.


[/quote]

It's not called tenor anything. It's alto. Tenors can also go lower (no matter how high they can go)

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1336014736' post='2426390']
I can hit those notes.
[/quote]

Have a trophy.

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1336016908' post='2426403']
It's not called tenor anything. It's alto. Tenors can also go lower (no matter how high they can go)
[/quote]

Well, I grew up on Classic Hard Rock and Classic Heavy Metal, such as Guns N' Roses and Iron Maiden. I trained my voice off these songs, and these are the songs I can sing. I've never really had a talent for low notes even when I was first singing, but a lot of this weighs on what I trained myself to sing. This is why my sister's fiancee wants me to practice the lower notes and expand my voice range. It hurts to go low for too long so I don't do it constantly, though. I can sing With Or Without You, but I don't think singing an octave higher than Bono counts.

When my sister's fiancee first heard me he thought I was a falsetto, but later he decided I was no Andy Gib and he said my vocal range was lower than that. My voice range is pretty wide, but it's very limited on lower notes. I can go past two keys lower than middle C, but it doesn't sound good. Up to two keys it does, but after that it doesn't look very pretty. Is there anything you can recommend for low notes and on expanding my vocal range in general? I'm more focused on expanding it for the low notes since I can sing pretty high in the first place. I'm not Steven Tyler, but I can go way past an octave if I want. It's straining, but it's fun to brag that I can sing higher than most people at my age. Nothing screams testosterone like belting out those high notes.

Edited May 3, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1336004762' post='2426279']
But really, no cold drinks? Not even cold water? What's wrong with cold water? I like my drinks ice cold. This isn't going to be fun...
[/quote]
You can drink cold things or caffeine or whatever, just not before you sing.

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1336013649' post='2426374']
A woman's range, you say? Because My voice range is from two keys to the left of Middle C on up to the right past an octave, so I suppose I have a woman's range, though I believe that's called a tenor 2 more officially. Most of the bands I listen to have male vocalists (In fact, they're usually all-male. I can't think of one that has a female, to be honest) and they're all mostly tenor 2's, or whichever tenor is the higher one of the two.
[/quote]
Tenor 1 would be higher, generally, but tenor 1/2 are only used to designate split parts in a piece. I suppose some might go around saying that they sing tenor 2 if that's what they generally sing in ensembles...sounds kind of weird. Anyway, a more descriptive (if less used) system would be to add one of the voice classification descriptors when talking about your range ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor#Tenor_voice_classification"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor#Tenor_voice_classification[/url]). Generally you would just call yourself a tenor, though.

But as MS said, yes, you're not a tenor, so it's moot.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1336019691' post='2426422']
You can drink cold things or caffeine or whatever, just not before you sing.


Tenor 1 would be higher, generally, but tenor 1/2 are only used to designate split parts in a piece. I suppose some might go around saying that they sing tenor 2 if that's what they generally sing in ensembles...sounds kind of weird. Anyway, a more descriptive (if less used) system would be to add one of the voice classification descriptors when talking about your range ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor#Tenor_voice_classification"]http://en.wikipedia...._classification[/url]). Generally you would just call yourself a tenor, though.

But as MS said, yes, you're not a tenor, so it's moot.
[/quote]

Oh good. I only like water if it's cold. I can't really stand warm water. Is there a reason you can't drink cold stuff before you sing, though? Does it constrict your throat and affect your performance or something?

I see. Well, as I said, I'm working on the low notes, and I'm actually doing really well. Whereas I used to not be able to sing the low notes on Sunday Bloody Sunday I can now sing them quite well, though not perfectly since I'm still getting the hang of it. I used to not even be able to sing the "low notes" on Still Haven't Found What I'm Lookin' For, and now it appears that song is one of my gems. I love singing that song because I can hit the notes so well.

[PhuturePriest]

By the way, if you're wondering, missionseeker, I heard the theory that your voice is made to sing 24 hours a day without strain from this book: [url="http://www.amazon.com/Set-Your-Voice-Free-Speaking/dp/0316441589/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1336020465&sr=8-4"]http://www.amazon.co...36020465&sr=8-4[/url] I figured he knew what he was talking about since it said he helped Vince Neil of Motley Crue, and if he can turn Vince Neil from this

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPJnGCV6634[/media]
to this
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQMBz6HvSoM[/media]
he's got to be a musical genius.

Edited May 3, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[AnneLine]

I dunno ... I'm not sure I would trust him on this one... I doubt anyone can sing 24 hours without straining their voice. Seriously. I think he's trying to sell his book....

It's not that you can't have a glass of water or milk. It's that you don't want to have cold drinks WHEN or right BEFORE you are singing. Because you increase the chance of straining or injuring your vocal chords. Permanently.

If you are close to a brown belt in karate now, think about the very simple exercises they gave you when you first started, and where you are now. You would NOT have gotten where you are now if you hadn't started back there. Like Karate, this is about discipline and hard work.

Just like with those who run... running without warming up, or not stretching after you exercise -- that is how people get hurt at the gym or if they go running.... if you do the before and after work, you get to be a better athlete, and you don't get injured.

Same thing with singing.

Sure, you can sing a little of the music you like... but you will get more of a range and a stronger voice if you also SLOWLY work with what you have and then try just a little each day to go maybe one half or full note higher or lower.... and after a few weeks of that, then you go one step further. Ask your sister's friend to demo it for you. It is exactly like doing extra reps in a gym... you don't do more or add more weight until you can do what you are working with easily and with no stress.

That video that MissyP put up was exactly the same voice exercise I was thinking of and that almost everyone uses to warm up and to slowly work toward expanding their range.


It's not U2 or Bono... it's boring! but it works!

I learned to sing it with the words

'ma-o-me-o-ma-o-me-o-ma'
(dum dum)
'ma-o-me-o-ma-o-me-o-ma'
(dum dum)
etc.

We ALWAYS did at least 10 or 15 minutes of that up and down the scale before each and every choir practice. You'll know what note to start with, and you go as far as you can up, and then as far as you can back. Note where that is, and after a week or two, try to go up ONE note higher or lower. it's boring, I agree... but it works. And when I was at the university, when I walked pst the music building that was the sound that kept coming thru all the windows....

but it it's like doing exercises in a gym for your body.... you do enough reps, you build up muscle and you won't injure yourself when you try to work with more weight.

Those of you with more musical training, does what I am saying this sound right to you?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1336020367' post='2426429']
Oh good. I only like water if it's cold. I can't really stand warm water. Is there a reason you can't drink cold stuff before you sing, though? Does it constrict your throat and affect your performance or something?
[/quote]
Cold things and dairy products make your body produce more mucus.

[missionseeker]

AnneLine, you are correct.

FuturePriest, just using common sense you can reason that he's way out of line saying you can sing for 24 hours without feeling strain. Is there anything someone can do for 24 hours without feeling strain? That would be like saying someone can run for 24 hours without getting tired. I wouldn't trust this guy at all. And if read you reviews, the ones by voice teachers all are one stars and say that it's bad/old/outdated information. If you would like to research vocal techniques for both singing and speaking, I would recommend this site: [url="http://www.ncvs.org/"]http://www.ncvs.org/[/url] While some of Love's theories may correct, you have to remember that his theories were most like developed a few decades ago, before we had the technology to fully understand the science behind the vocal apparatuses. That is why they are even called vocal chords, because people didn't realize that they are not, in fact, chords, but folds. Which clap together at high speeds to form words and songs. The clapping together constantly for 24 hours would cause (what is basically the equivalent of) bruising on the folds.

I just would proceed with caution when anyone promotes the idea of 24 hour use in vocal technique.