Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin?

[cappie]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1335845149' post='2425524']
Thanks Father! I've always heard the phrase attributed to St. Augustine. That's a good point though. So what I'm seeing here is that we are dealing with a person (a sinner) and thus love should be our fundamental approach; and at the same time, we should not disregard the truth, however, emphasizing love is key. 1 Corinthians 13 and all. I like that, brings me a lot of clarity.
[/quote]

Attributing the saying to St Augustine is common. Saint Augustine said: [i]Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum[/i], which translates roughly to "With love for mankind and hatred of sins." So they same similar things, the Catechism, states (in a line often ignored) that gays and lesbians must be welcomed with "respect, sensitivity and compassion." They can also reach "Christian perfection," that is, holiness, says the Catechism.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

actually i was worng it is not one of the sins against the holy spirit, silence to sin is one of the 9 ways of being an accesory to anothers sin. With the grace of the holy spirit prudence i'm told must be exercised though with Faith in christ,Love of God and neighbour, and the Hope of heaven for yourself and the reciepient. Prudence not procrastination, prudence as in to be as wise as a snake but as peacful as a dove. I should pray to Jesus on such a manner before advancing, though i don't to often, even in the heat of the momment a simple thought prayer of Jesus i love you please give me the right words in your love. Some times we even have to walk away and pray, to continue with a person at a latter date, politely exusing oneself to go and pray and think about things, can be a pretty big statement. A guy told me once he just stole something from the shops and i must have stared him daggers because he high tailed it away from me very quickly.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[beatitude]

[quote name='Miri' timestamp='1335768602' post='2425116']
I would have to explain how I love them anyway, because I'm just as wretched a sinner as they are. The only difference is that I recognize my sins as such and am repentant for them. They are not.
[/quote]

Miri, I agree with most of what you've written, but I think it's good to remember that we all have sins that we do not recognise. Looking back on my life, I can see that I did things that were definitely wrong. At the time, practising Catholic though I was, I didn't see them as wrong. Ten years into the future, I may look back on today and be able to identify sins that now I do not see. We are all quite talented at hiding from truth. It's a humbling thought.

[Papist]

When a loved one is engaging in sinful behavior, the below Ezekiel passage eats at me. As a Christian, I am certainly called to love my neighbor. However, that does not include me sitting on the sideline being silent while my neighbor is engaging in sinful behavior. That said, without LOVE you will not be listen to. In fact, as Cappie said, it can even make things worse.

[quote]
[b]Ezekiel 33:1-9[/b]

The word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, speak to your people and tell them: When I bring the sword against a land, if the people of that land select one of their number as a sentinel for them, and the sentinel sees the sword coming against the land, he should blow the trumpet to warn the people. If they hear the trumpet but do not take the warning and a sword attacks and kills them, their blood will be on their own heads. They heard the trumpet blast but ignored the warning; their blood is on them. If they had heeded the warning, they could have escaped with their lives. If, however, the sentinel sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, so that the sword attacks and takes someone’s life, his life will be taken for his own sin, but I will hold the sentinel responsible for his blood.

You, son of man—I have appointed you as a sentinel for the house of Israel; when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them for me. When I say to the wicked, “You wicked, you must die,” and you do not speak up to warn the wicked about their ways, they shall die in their sins, but I will hold you responsible for their blood. If, however, you warn the wicked to turn from their ways, but they do not, then they shall die in their sins, but you shall save your life.[/quote]

[CatherineM]

I have walked this line my entire life. My parents had both been married before and didn't take communion. Between my 5 brothers, I have had 12 sisters in law. Alcohol use, drug use, tax cheats, occasionally selling stolen goods or getting into a bar fight. Only one of my nieces has been baptized, but since she hasn't set foot in a Catholic church since she learned to walk, not exactly a win. I'm the only person in my family, including all my first cousins, who still practices the faith.

Later I had clients who identified as gay, lesbian, trans-gendered, ambiguous gender, addicts, and all levels of different kind of perversions. Somewhere along the line, I was able to separate the people from their illnesses or situations or whatever you want to call it. That serves me quite well now that I am married to a man with Schizophrenia. When he gets overtired and thinks the TV is talking to him, I don't get angry or scared, and I don't participate in the hallucination. I just tell him that if he thinks the TV is talking to him, he should turn it off and go to bed. When something like that happens, I don't blame Austin, I blame the illness.

Works the same way with sinners. We can't participate, but we can remember that they are not their sin. It's one of the reasons that the Church prefers us to refer to people who call themselves gay as a person with same sex attraction. In your mind, you have to separate the human from the sin. That sin might not rise to the level of an illness, but it certainly isn't a person who is whole. None of us are.

[MissyP89]

I don't have time to reply to everyone individually right now (welcome to the phamily, Miri!), but I just wanted to say thanks for all of the wonderful insight here. I think I'm closer to doing the right thing in these friendships than I originally thought.

For me, it all comes down to the idea that most people, like most of us here, are just trying to get by and be the best people we can. We're all searching for acceptance and validation, and at the end of the day, that's only really fulfilled in God's love. That's the message we need to spread.

[Annie12]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1335744535' post='2424986']
Missy mentioned this, and because she said it much better than I:



So, what is the balance? How do we love someone in serious sin? This is something that's been coming up for me a lot recently, and, like Missy, I'm looking for the balance.

Also, this doesn't seem much like a debate, which is why I put this here, but Mods, if this is more of a debate, y'all feel free to move it.
[/quote]
This just brings to mind for me how Jesus loved everyone and especially took care to those who were bad sinners. I think of the adulteress who everyone was going to stone to death and I know that Jesus loved her even though she had made bad choices. I see the answer to this question, as being, the only way we will be able to show others how to be good is by being loving and a leader. If we are anything but we will only drive people away from the truth because of what we say we represent.

[cappie]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1335905478' post='2425774']
This just brings to mind for me how Jesus loved everyone and especially took care to those who were bad sinners. I think of the adulteress who everyone was going to stone to death and I know that Jesus loved her even though she had made bad choices. I see the answer to this question, as being, the only way we will be able to show others how to be good is by being loving and a leader. If we are anything but we will only drive people away from the truth because of what we say we represent.
[/quote]

I have heard many preachers point out that Jesus next says to her “Go and leave your life of sin.” and that is certainly true, but the real point here I think is that even though Jesus did consider adultery sinful, he still was the one who defended her. He was the only one there who was “without sin”. So, even if we think certain sins are wrong, we know Jesus has drawn a line in the sand so to speak, and we need to decide what side of that line we will be on. Will we be on the side of Jesus and the one who is being condemned and threatened? Or will we stand with the religious accusers on the other side of that line? Maybe we are not the ones actually throwing the stones, but do we stand on the side of the accused and condemned and actively defend them like Jesus did? Did we actively defend and love “the least of these”? Because Jesus says that the way we treat them is the way we treat him. St John of the Cross said:""In the evening of life, we will be judged on love alone." and the first step of love is acceptance of the person.

[Gabriela]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1335870282' post='2425587']
Miri, I agree with most of what you've written, but I think it's good to remember that we all have sins that we do not recognise. Looking back on my life, I can see that I did things that were definitely wrong. At the time, practising Catholic though I was, I didn't see them as wrong. Ten years into the future, I may look back on today and be able to identify sins that now I do not see. We are all quite talented at hiding from truth. It's a humbling thought.
[/quote]

Yeah, I should have phrased that more carefully. I meant, "[i]When[/i] I (finally) see that something I'm doing is a sin, I don't hesitate to call it that, and to repent for it." But that is kinda' circular. I agree that we're likely all doing things that are sinful that we don't recognize as such. I've been in the same situation as you...

[Gabriela]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1335898733' post='2425717']
(welcome to the phamily, Miri!)
[/quote]

Thank you! :-)

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

surely we will be measured by the rod we measure with,jesus says so. But in that i'm not jesus nore am i in an order like mother theresa of calcutta,i'm just worried about confusing zeal for stupidity. If your in seriouse danger of sin by being around certain people you can still love them but have to evacuate and pray. And don't be hard on yourself if your no mother theresa of calcutta because on the other end of the scale of holyness which i'm told is no scale really, is st therese of liseux and her little ways, both holy women but one possibly a bucket and the other a cup(bear with me.) when a bucket is full it is full and no less is a cup full when it is full neither being able to take on any more water. But on the matter of Love the sinner hate the sin, I believe again if and when the chance arises we must try our best to confess what we believe to someone in all manner of faith, belief being fundamental to do so i guess like i can't confess my belief in lets say any of the works st thomas aquinas because i haven't read any and have no understanding of such, but i do believe sin has consequences and i do believe Jesus can save me from sin, not only by the holy word but also experience too.

[Ice_nine]

I smell of elderberries at the interpersonal commandment to "admonish the sinner" or "inform the ignorant." I try not to explicitly or implicitly condone sin, but I'm sure I fall short quite often. I'm hoping God will use my prayers and the pains sadness I feel over concern for people's immortal souls to make up for my deficits in other areas as well.

But when I am directly asked for an opinion, I do share it as lovingly as possible. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. For the most part people just think I'm being naive and quaint and that I just don't "get" how the "real world" works.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Ice_nine

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1335942545' post='2425995']
I smell of elderberries at the interpersonal commandment to "admonish the sinner" or "inform the ignorant." I try not to explicitly or implicitly condone sin, but I'm sure I fall short quite often. I'm hoping God will use my prayers and the pains sadness I feel over concern for people's immortal souls to make up for my deficits in other areas as well.


[/quote]

I like what you said about the sadness, supposedly sometimes we don't have the words so our soul groans for us, possibly it can groan for others too, when we have not the words. And God knows we all fall short at times, otherwise we would be Gods right?

Edited May 2, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[cappie]

I try to be guided by St Augustine in my pastoral work especially where prudence is called for. St Augustine in his work Morals of The Catholic Church Chapter 15 Finding the Virtues in Love says:"Prudence is love making a right decision between what helps it towards God and what might hinder it."

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='cappie' timestamp='1335945693' post='2426007']
I try to be guided by St Augustine in my pastoral work especially where prudence is called for. St Augustine in his work Morals of The Catholic Church Chapter 15 Finding the Virtues in Love says:"Prudence is love making a right decision between what helps it towards God and what might hinder it."
[/quote]

Wonderful, do you agree though fr cappie that prudence in matters admonishing sin, if over thought(for wan't of a better word) can become procrastination and can cause damage to the charity and faith of the procrastinator? The holy bible states that a crime should not go unoticed, i assume there are various ways to admonish sin, to not let a crime go unoticed. Praying for the person,vocal objection (and objection doesn't mean war as such), possibly even fasting, giving the person christian media... What other ways are the fr. cappie that we can admonish sin ?

Edited May 2, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye