Catechism Was Not Written To Please You.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1335803919' post='2425210']
Why are you assuming I'm assuming?
I don't think you're a jerk or anything like that, and I'm not angry, either. I believe you that you are a caring person, and I know your heart is in the right place for the most part and you try to be a good person. All I'm saying is that I don't think it's a laughing matter when someone realizes that what they thought was okay is actually a serious sin and they have major changes to make in their lives. That doesn't mean I think you laugh while someone cries or anything. I just think that we spend enough time in the world today laughing at people and this might be a time to make sure they don't feel like they're being mocked (even if you don't intend it that way, it can be taken that way) and show them a little understanding. And just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that I didn't understand what you said or that I'm making assumptions. People can understand what you said and still disagree.
[/quote]

Why do you assume... Dang it, I can't think of anything to retort while using the word "assume".

I know, and thank you. Perhaps I shouldn't laugh. I just felt that people took what I said the wrong way and I wanted to make sure everyone knew what I meant before it went out of hand (Or should I say out of keyboard)? Thank you for helping me. I'll be sure to take what you have said into account.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1335804917' post='2425215']
its not so much teaching people that they are going to hell, its more teaching them the commandments, and suddenly they realize, "if we keep living this way, we're going to hell..."

like yesterday, a little girl told me that her parents don't go to Mass on Sunday after I taught them the 3rd commandment of "keeping the Lord's day holy." I told her that she did not incur any sin because she's 9 years old and can't take herself to church. But she was concerned about her parents. I told her that just because she's 9 doesn't mean she can't help her parents to understand that coming to Mass on Sunday was extremely important, and she just told me, "They would need to go to confession first before receiving Holy Communion, because we've missed A LOT of Sunday Masses."

Do I need to feel guilty for telling these little kids the TRUTH because it might hurt the feelings of their parents? IT seems that is the only reason I've gotten in trouble before, becuase people get their feelings hurt and don't wnat to hear how being a good Catholic and knowing about Jesus means keeping His commandments....
[/quote]

A Dominican-loving Ron Paul supporter as you may be, I love you for these types of posts. At some point the word must be said, even if it comes from your child. That being said, I will now stop, since I know if I continue I will accidentally say something stupid.

Edited April 30, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1335808631' post='2425241']
Well, it's one thing to say to somebody, "You're going to hell!" And quite another to say to somebody, "If you keep doing what you're doing, and you don't change your life, you'll end up in hell."

Many saints have used the idea of hell as a deterrent for others. The fire and brimstone approach shouldn't be used on everyone, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't ever be used... (wait, double negative... I think that came out right.)

Some people don't know any better and they have to be told at some point - "Hey, the Church teaches that what you're doing is a mortal sin. [b]The Church also teaches that if you die with a mortal sin on your soul you will go to hell. That's why they're called mortal sins.[/b] I'm telling you this because I'm worried about you."

Also, I think just the tense of the sentence can make all the difference; ie future vs present.
[/quote]

Not to be nit-picky, but this has always been a big stickler for me. It does not teach that you [i]will [/i]go to hell, as it also teaches that if you are perfectly contrite you will be forgiven of the Mortal sin(s). However, it does teach that it is a grave sin and if you are not perfectly contrite and are not repentant you will go to hell. You had it right, but I always like to point out the difference. This was always a very big fear for me in my more wild days as I constantly feared I would die and go to hell because I committed Mortal sins. It deterred me a lot until I learned if you were perfectly contrite you would be forgiven. I of course worried about whether or not I was perfectly contrite, but I still have hope, and one of the staple-points of the Faith is hope.

[fides' Jack]

No, you're wrong. If you die with a mortal sin on your soul, you go to hell. That's what it says. I'll try to look it up for you when I have time (could be a while).

You're getting confused with time of death and perfect (vs imperfect) contrition. You can't suddenly become perfectly contrite after you die. It has to happen beforehand. If you have perfect contrition before you die, then you're forgiven, and therefore [i]you don't die with a mortal sin on your soul[/i].

So - once you misunderstood the catechism you were no longer deterred from sin? J/k - you seem to be able to take a jab.

Furthermore, perfect contrition does not come easily. I forget the saint that gave a homily on the matter, and was asked afterward if anyone in the Church actually had perfect contrition, and he replied only himself and one elderly lady. That might not be a true story, or if it is it might be exaggerated, but I keep it in mind to remind myself that I have probably never even once attained perfect contrition.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1335808631' post='2425241']
Well, it's one thing to say to somebody, "You're going to hell!" And quite another to say to somebody, "If you keep doing what you're doing, and you don't change your life, you'll end up in hell."

Many saints have used the idea of hell as a deterrent for others. The fire and brimstone approach shouldn't be used on everyone, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't ever be used... (wait, double negative... I think that came out right.)

Some people don't know any better and they have to be told at some point - "Hey, the Church teaches that what you're doing is a mortal sin. The Church also teaches that if you die with a mortal sin on your soul you will go to hell. That's why they're called mortal sins. I'm telling you this because I'm worried about you."

Also, I think just the tense of the sentence can make all the difference; ie future vs present.
[/quote]

Which is what I was trying to get at.

You see, one must also look at it from the point of a kid in religion class. He learns:

1) X, Y, and Z are mortal sins.
2) If you die with a mortal sin on your soul, you are going to hell.
3) Mommy and daddy are doing X, or Y, or Z, or a combination thereof, or other unmentionables.

The kid puts it all together logically and thinks in horror, "Oh no, mommy and daddy are going to hell!".

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1335820311' post='2425356']
No, you're wrong. If you die with a mortal sin on your soul, you go to hell. That's what it says. I'll try to look it up for you when I have time (could be a while).

You're getting confused with time of death and perfect (vs imperfect) contrition. You can't suddenly become perfectly contrite after you die. It has to happen beforehand. If you have perfect contrition before you die, then you're forgiven, and therefore [i]you don't die with a mortal sin on your soul[/i].

So - once you misunderstood the catechism you were no longer deterred from sin? J/k - you seem to be able to take a jab.

Furthermore, perfect contrition does not come easily. I forget the saint that gave a homily on the matter, and was asked afterward if anyone in the Church actually had perfect contrition, and he replied only himself and one elderly lady. That might not be a true story, or if it is it might be exaggerated, but I keep it in mind to remind myself that I have probably never even once attained perfect contrition.
[/quote]

Well, I would still say you have it on your soul, because even if you have perfect contrition you must go to Confession before receiving the Eucharist. Ergo, you still have it on your conscience, though it is forgiven because you are perfectly contrite. Or this is how I have understood it.

I do know you can't magically have it after you die. Did I imply that? I don't think I did, but I may unintentionally have.

[arfink]

I was faced with this the other day. A catholic co-worker had been away from confession for over 10 years, had drinking problems, and wouldn't go to mass except when she felt like it, which thankfully was more than once a year. During Lent I mentioned that I would be going to confession, since all Catholics are supposed to do that during Lent. She said she didn't want to go, so I waited until another day.

Then on the night of the Easter Vigil I bade farewell to my co-workers so that I could go to the vigil mass, and she asked me to say a prayer for her. I said I would pray for her conversion and that she would go to confession. She laughed, but she did go to confession the next week!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1335756447' post='2425071']
THAT'S not what that said a couple of hours ago. :rollseyes:
[/quote]
[i]I [/i]didn't change it.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1335835052' post='2425459']
Well, I would still say you have it on your soul, because even if you have perfect contrition you must go to Confession before receiving the Eucharist. Ergo, you still have it on your conscience, though it is forgiven because you are perfectly contrite. Or this is how I have understood it.

I do know you can't magically have it after you die. Did I imply that? I don't think I did, but I may unintentionally have.
[/quote]

I don't think you were implying that - I was just covering all my bases.

When we are forgiven, the sin is no longer on our soul, but the temporal punishment due to our sin still exists. So, even if we confess absolutely all of our sins and then die before sinning again, we don't go to Heaven immediately, but to Purgatory, to "serve our time", so to speak. I think the idea behind the recommendation that we go to Confession before receiving the Eucharist, even if we make an act of perfect contrition, is because we can't possibly know for sure if we're perfectly contrite. Since perfect contrition does seem to be so hard to attain, then saying that confession is required is probably needed, even if not entirely theologically accurate.

I think this concept is pretty hard for most Catholics - not because it's difficult to understand, but because it presents a side of moral teaching that most are unfamiliar with. There seems to be a question unanswered: "If God forgives me, why would He punish me?" People who ask this expect our relationship with God to work the same way as our relationships with each other, and they expect people to forget at the same time they forgive. In reality, neither case is, or even should be, true. There are consequences for all our actions toward each other and toward God (even if we are forgiven), and our relationship with God is not, and should never be, the same as our relationships with each other.

[fides' Jack]

Hmm... My response doesn't really answer what you were saying though.

God does forgive us when we are perfectly contrite, even if we didn't go to confession.
When we are forgiven, sins are no longer on our souls.
Therefore, if we are perfectly contrite, the sin is no longer on our souls, even if we don't go to confession.

I don't think the Church teaches that we "must" go to confession, even after making an act of perfect contrition, but it's definitely recommended (and even insisted upon), for the reasons I gave above. Chances are you don't really have perfect contrition, and receiving unworthily is a sin of sacrilege.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1335894257' post='2425686']
I don't think the Church teaches that we "must" go to confession, even after making an act of perfect contrition. . .
[/quote]

As far as I understand it, an act of perfect contrition is only "valid" if it includes the promise that you'll receive sacramental absolution as soon as you're able to.

But I've also heard you should really only make an act of perfect contrition if you're either in a war zone, on a crashing plane, or otherwise about to meet your Maker.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1335908443' post='2425789']
As far as I understand it, an act of perfect contrition is only "valid" if it includes the promise that you'll receive sacramental absolution as soon as you're able to.

But I've also heard you should really only make an act of perfect contrition if you're either in a war zone, on a crashing plane, or otherwise about to meet your Maker.
[/quote]

First off - nice Aeris avatar! At least that's what it looks like.

I think you're right about the intent to go to confession as soon as possible. Again, that seems to me to be indicative of the idea that we can't know for sure whether we have perfect contrition. I meant that I don't think the Church teaches that it's absolutely required to go to confession before receiving, if an act of perfect contrition has been made. Of course, the only occasions that come to mind that warrant this are when near death and no priest is available. (in which case it's still probably better to not receive - imo)

I've never heard that about when we should try an act of perfect contrition. In fact, I've heard that we should try it every time we commit a mortal sin - just in case.

Edited May 2, 2012 by fides' Jack

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1335977200' post='2426092']


I've never heard that about when we should try an act of perfect contrition. In fact, I've heard that we should try it every time we commit a mortal sin - just in case.
[/quote]

ZORGSG I totally misread this. I thought it said "if we try an act of perfect contrition every time then we commit a mortal sin."


It was like Twilight Zone for a second there.

[fides' Jack]

What is zorgsg?

[Ice_nine]

It's Czechoslovakian for lolsay what?!