MissScripture Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1335748582' post='2425023'] Did I ever say that they burst into tears and I start laughing? No, so stop assuming that. Assume I have things to do in my day and I sometimes don't say all that I want to. I laugh when they're like "Seriously? Man..." As stated, I take it very seriously when they're freaked out. As shocking as this may seem to you, I'm actually seen as a bit of a therapist among my friends and they always come to me when they have problems. I'm actually a pretty caring person. Maybe they come to me because I like to give out hugs? I'm not angry, I just don't know how to say this any other way. I just don't like it when people assume things and don't take the time to say "Wait, do you mean *blank*, or did you just not phrase that right?" I thank you all for trying to help me, but criticizing me over an assumption isn't very helpful. [/quote] Why are you assuming I'm assuming? I don't think you're a jerk or anything like that, and I'm not angry, either. I believe you that you are a caring person, and I know your heart is in the right place for the most part and you try to be a good person. All I'm saying is that I don't think it's a laughing matter when someone realizes that what they thought was okay is actually a serious sin and they have major changes to make in their lives. That doesn't mean I think you laugh while someone cries or anything. I just think that we spend enough time in the world today laughing at people and this might be a time to make sure they don't feel like they're being mocked (even if you don't intend it that way, it can be taken that way) and show them a little understanding. And just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that I didn't understand what you said or that I'm making assumptions. People can understand what you said and still disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1335752573' post='2425043'] Yeah, like THAT line would have gone far in the era I was growing up in... what it would have gotten my generation was either a swift swat in the butt or a tongue-lashing that would make a marine drill sergeant cower in fear. No "Gee, Johhny, you're correct - kumbaya, now let's go make a banner". What really happens is that sooner or later kids either will see the mixed signals and either not take the Church or their parents seriously (or both), fostering teen rebellion from which they may never recover and return to the Church, or they will realize that their parents are hypocrites, either when the parents try to use religion to discipline the kids, or when the kid actually tries to live out what he/she learns in Catholic school/religious education only to have the parents undo it at home, which is what Jesus prophesied when He stated He came to bring division and that family members would be set against each other. Honestly, what are some parents thinking these days? If they want their kid to get a good Catholic education and foundation and have peace in the home and family, they need to be on the same page as the Church and be a good example to their kids, otherwise they are sabotaging their efforts and asking for trouble. That's all I was trying to get at. [/quote] Okay, that response doesn't even really make sense. Where did I, or anyone, say that we should ignore sins and sing kumbya? I hate that song. I would never tell anyone to sing it. But that doesn't mean that anyone should be telling anyone else or assuming anyone else is going to hell, even if you can see their sins. We don't know their hearts. We have no way of knowing what state their soul is in. I would be very offended if a CCD teacher, or anyone, for that matter, told my son that people who do xyz are going to hell. No. They're not necessarily. They might be. But they might not be. We don't know that. And as Missionseeker pointed out, Jesus himself did not tell anyone they were going to hell. He told them to repent. He showed them his merciful love. He showed all of us his mercy and love. Who are we to judge the hearts of others. I have no problem with people teaching that xyz is a mortal sin, and mortal sins cut us off from the grace of God, and if we do not repent we will go to hell. That is not judging hearts. The Church herself does not say definitively that certain people are in Hell, even if they committed terrible public sins. Who are we to heap condemnation on others? Moreover, if all the kids are taught is that the Church is a list of rules and regulations then I find the likelihood that they will stay in the church very small. If they are taught about a merciful God who loves them and forgives them, I'm guessing that the likelihood will increase of their commitment to their faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1335787554' post='2425145'] ...this is something i've heard other catholics say about priests telling them how to raise their children, since they are "single"...and i've even heard some say priests can't tell them anything about their sex lives, because, you know, they are celibate [/quote] Well, I wouldn't take advice from a priest who felt the need to tell others they were going to hell, either. Espeically if the priest was teaching children that their parents were going to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 its not so much teaching people that they are going to hell, its more teaching them the commandments, and suddenly they realize, "if we keep living this way, we're going to hell..." like yesterday, a little girl told me that her parents don't go to Mass on Sunday after I taught them the 3rd commandment of "keeping the Lord's day holy." I told her that she did not incur any sin because she's 9 years old and can't take herself to church. But she was concerned about her parents. I told her that just because she's 9 doesn't mean she can't help her parents to understand that coming to Mass on Sunday was extremely important, and she just told me, "They would need to go to confession first before receiving Holy Communion, because we've missed A LOT of Sunday Masses." Do I need to feel guilty for telling these little kids the TRUTH because it might hurt the feelings of their parents? IT seems that is the only reason I've gotten in trouble before, becuase people get their feelings hurt and don't wnat to hear how being a good Catholic and knowing about Jesus means keeping His commandments.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1335804917' post='2425215'] its not so much teaching people that they are going to hell, its more teaching them the commandments, and suddenly they realize, "if we keep living this way, we're going to hell..." like yesterday, a little girl told me that her parents don't go to Mass on Sunday after I taught them the 3rd commandment of "keeping the Lord's day holy." I told her that she did not incur any sin because she's 9 years old and can't take herself to church. But she was concerned about her parents. I told her that just because she's 9 doesn't mean she can't help her parents to understand that coming to Mass on Sunday was extremely important, and she just told me, "They would need to go to confession first before receiving Holy Communion, because we've missed A LOT of Sunday Masses." Do I need to feel guilty for telling these little kids the TRUTH because it might hurt the feelings of their parents? IT seems that is the only reason I've gotten in trouble before, becuase people get their feelings hurt and don't wnat to hear how being a good Catholic and knowing about Jesus means keeping His commandments.... [/quote] Like I said, it's one thing to tell people what a sin is and what it isn't. It's entirely different to state it in the way that Norseman did which was "They are going to hell." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I don't think I"ve ever told anyone "they are going to hell" but I've taught others that "they are in danger of going to hell.." I just think a lot of what we've suffered the last 40 years in the Church has to do with trying not to hurt people's feelings... I'm not for the fire and brimstone kind of preaching the Gospel, but sometimes you have to be blunt and tell a loved one, "If you keep living this way and you die tonite, you will go to hell." That is the most loving and charitable thing you can tell someone you love because you fear them dying and going to hell...and nothing is worth losing eternal life! The church's mission is to "save souls" not "lets not hurt feelings." People [i]will be [/i]hurt, they [i]will be [/i]uncomfortable, they will not like to hear the Truth. Sadly, people who do not want to change their lives to follow the Commandments and yet still consider themselves good, decent Catholics are no worse than Judas. My parish priest, Fr. Kirby, said that much yesterday in the homily. I prayed very hard for him, because I know he will receive a backlash for saying it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1335805915' post='2425222'] I don't think I"ve ever told anyone "they are going to hell" but I've taught others that "they are in danger of going to hell.." I just think a lot of what we've suffered the last 40 years in the Church has to do with trying not to hurt people's feelings... I'm not for the fire and brimstone kind of preaching the Gospel, but sometimes you have to be blunt and tell a loved one, "If you keep living this way and you die tonite, you will go to hell." That is the most loving and charitable thing you can tell someone you love because you fear them dying and going to hell...and nothing is worth losing eternal life! The church's mission is to "save souls" not "lets not hurt feelings." People [i]will be [/i]hurt, they [i]will be [/i]uncomfortable, they will not like to hear the Truth. Sadly, people who do not want to change their lives to follow the Commandments and yet still consider themselves good, decent Catholics are no worse than Judas. My parish priest, Fr. Kirby, said that much yesterday in the homily. I prayed very hard for him, because I know he will receive a backlash for saying it... [/quote] But that's still leaving room for repentance. That is still different than flat out saying, "You are going to hell" with no room for repentance and God's love and mercy. And even so, it's going to depend on the situation as to whether or not putting things bluntly is the best option. Sometimes a little finesse will go a long way. I'm not saying don't say anything or that we should worry constantly about making people uncomfortable. I'm just saying that oftentimes, the steamroller method will only make others cling more tightly to their sin and not win any souls. And if winning souls for Christ is the goal, then a little humility can go a long way, and the steamroller method usually does not display a lot of that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Well, it's one thing to say to somebody, "You're going to hell!" And quite another to say to somebody, "If you keep doing what you're doing, and you don't change your life, you'll end up in hell." Many saints have used the idea of hell as a deterrent for others. The fire and brimstone approach shouldn't be used on everyone, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't ever be used... (wait, double negative... I think that came out right.) Some people don't know any better and they have to be told at some point - "Hey, the Church teaches that what you're doing is a mortal sin. The Church also teaches that if you die with a mortal sin on your soul you will go to hell. That's why they're called mortal sins. I'm telling you this because I'm worried about you."Also, I think just the tense of the sentence can make all the difference; ie future vs present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Oh - notice that I propped both sides of the argument, because I think everyone is saying the same thing, here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadrePioOfPietrelcino Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1335737298' post='2424936'] I still don't see how it's a laughing matter. Seems more like you should react with compassion and understanding and helpfulness rather than laughing at them. [/quote] I can see the laughter in it...in some ways I too laugh, but not AT them...but more of interior laughter and joy. When I see that type of face it is a sign to me that something is happening...that there is a recognition of the need to change at least to some degree. Conversion of the heart is always something to be joyful of and to laugh (in pleasure) at the Grace of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1335808631' post='2425241']Some people don't know any better and they have to be told at some point - "Hey, the Church teaches that what you're doing is a mortal sin. The Church also teaches that if you die with a mortal sin on your soul you will go to hell. That's why they're called mortal sins. I'm telling you this because I'm worried about you."[/quote] yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 [quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1335806957' post='2425228'] But that's still leaving room for repentance. That is still different than flat out saying, "You are going to hell" with no room for repentance and God's love and mercy. And even so, it's going to depend on the situation as to whether or not putting things bluntly is the best option. Sometimes a little finesse will go a long way. I'm not saying don't say anything or that we should worry constantly about making people uncomfortable. I'm just saying that oftentimes, the steamroller method will only make others cling more tightly to their sin and not win any souls. And if winning souls for Christ is the goal, then a little humility can go a long way, and the steamroller method usually does not display a lot of that... [/quote] ...in my experience, no matter how charitably I've told loved ones my concern for their living in sin, they do not want to hear it, and consider it "steamrolling." According to the majority of them, its not my business, and besides, the world dictates that the Church is "old-fashioned" and not all all "with the times" and sadly, there are Catholics who live by way of the world, than by way of the Church... I've been called to DRE offices enough to know that some people DO NOT want to really learn their Faith. They send their children to catechism because they need to obtain their sacraments. They want me to pretty much babysit their kids, and teach them the fluffy version of the Faith. They don't like their children coming home and discussing what I taught them in class, because they want to remain living their comfortable ways of life without the sacrifices they would need to make to conform their lives. This is why I love teaching the little kids more than the highschoolers, because in my experience, those little kids really do go home and tell their parents all that they learn, and they get excited about their faith, too. No matter how young they are, they DO have an incredible influence on their parents. When ever I get criticized or told to "keep it a little less controversial.." it hurts, but at the same time, I know I'm doing something right.... One thing for sure, I ALWAYS pray to the Holy Spirit first, because I don't want to cause problems, my only desire is to teach the Faith... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 people are just sensitive, you know? haha, in our society you would think we would toughen up with thick skin... But I hear waht you are saying MS, and I know what you mean... what comes to mind for me is those westboro baptists who hold signs that say terrible things like, "God hates Fags." I would NEVER even consider such things in line with evangelization.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I have noticed there is a fine line between trying to honestly and lovingly helping save a soul with TEH TRVTH, and coming off as a jackass. I further notice there is an even finer line attempting to explain that line on the interwebs. God bless you for the work you do, DS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) It's about using tact, and finding balance. There is a way to preach the truth in a matter of fact way yet be compassionate and understanding, finding that balance is a different story and is up to the individual how they do so. In this day and age we have become a sensitive lot, with some mighty thin skin. People should really read St. Francis's Letter to the Faithful. I wouldn't be surprised that if it was read as a homily the priest would get some nasty letters for being mean. Edited April 30, 2012 by Maximilianus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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