Bishop Gomez On Supreme Court Review Of Arizona Imm. Law

[Socrates]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1336047866' post='2426488']
What is an ordered 'anarchist' society? There is no such thing as an 'anarchist society' if anarchy means no means of agreeing upon what order should be, no means or providing the order, no means of protecting the order, no means of enforcing the order upon the minority who may vehemently oppose the order desired by the majority.
[/quote]
That's the problem in a nutshell.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1336072497' post='2426592']
Luckily, that is not what's meant by the term amongst those who advocate such things as anarcho-capitalism, market anarchy, voluntaryism, or any of the other various isms in the anarchist family.
[/quote]
Perhaps you can explain.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1336086143' post='2426676']
Requirements for citizenship were much higher when my great-grandparents came to Ellis Island over 100 years ago. Yet, then, we did not have the problems caused by unchecked immigration we have today.


If they are not American citizens, they do not need to be represented by U.S. government.

[/quote]

1. to me just being born somewhere should not make you more privilaged than someone else. an american can purposly be ignorgant and lazy while an immigrant can be smart and hardworking and yet the american get to be privilaged because of where he was born.

2.but what if they were unjustly refused access to the united states because of nothing they did but because of some dealing with then who is racist, sexist, bigoted.... pick whichever one works?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1336112213' post='2426931']
1. to me just being born somewhere should not make you more privilaged than someone else. an american can purposly be ignorgant and lazy while an immigrant can be smart and hardworking and yet the american get to be privilaged because of where he was born.

2.but what if they were unjustly refused access to the united states because of nothing they did but because of some dealing with then who is racist, sexist, bigoted.... pick whichever one works?
[/quote]
havok,
There is no perfect system. It's human nature to associate as a group and work together with common principles and goals. Citizenship brings privleges, and responsiblities. Countries develop and improve their standard of living by working together as a community and sharing the fruits with the community. America has developed into what it is by many generations working and sacrificing to build up and improve their society for themselves and their children. It's a big deal, sort of being adopted into a family, to assume the responsibilities and reap the benefits of the community.

Some people are born into rich families. Some people are born with physical beauty. Some people are born with intelligence. Some are born with everything. Life isn't 'fair'. People of other countries and political regeimes should be working together to build their community. US should help because we can. But like the old addage, if you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach him to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. It's denigrating to human dignity to assume other socieites can't work together to fashion thier own (different) society.

Which brings us back to the immigration issue. Shouldn't the Church be more interested in getting the US to help Mexico develop their society where it's citizens can prosper? Mexico has plenty of resources, plenty of hard working people. It's their society and government that is corrupt that cripples their development forcing people to come to the US to work illegally.

[Ice_nine]

[side rant tangent]

let's not forget the US-led war on drugs that has inadvertently funneled all sorts of capital into violent criminals who can make life a desperate hell for those living in their territories.

But that's [i]their [/i]problem after all, not mine. They best stay on their side of the fence unless they can earn their way in here like my ancestors did a hundred years ago.

It's much better this way tho. The only reason I really want the drug war to end is because I'm a hippie drug-addict. Has nothing to do with the Mexican corpses racking up because of it or nething.

[/side rant tangent]

[Anomaly]

The harm to society would be far greater if you legalized drugs. Pot isn't the only drug being smuggled across. Society has enough problems with abuse of the substances we have available. It is absolutely incomprehensible to me that people are so stupid the really believe legalizing more substances will improve society even one iota. I personally spent years using, abusing, and dealing drugs. I personally witnessed and aided scores of middle class dabblers who thought they'd never turn into a burn out. Though a minority, a significant number succumb to other, more profitable habits. If self centered arse portals would stop lieing to themselves they have a right to drug abuse, the drug cartels wouldn't have the market to make billions from inflicting misery on society.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1336136923' post='2426981']
havok,
There is no perfect system. It's human nature to associate as a group and work together with common principles and goals. Citizenship brings privleges, and responsiblities. Countries develop and improve their standard of living by working together as a community and sharing the fruits with the community. America has developed into what it is by many generations working and sacrificing to build up and improve their society for themselves and their children. It's a big deal, sort of being adopted into a family, to assume the responsibilities and reap the benefits of the community.

Some people are born into rich families. Some people are born with physical beauty. Some people are born with intelligence. Some are born with everything. Life isn't 'fair'. People of other countries and political regeimes should be working together to build their community. US should help because we can. But like the old addage, if you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach him to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. It's denigrating to human dignity to assume other socieites can't work together to fashion thier own (different) society.

Which brings us back to the immigration issue. Shouldn't the Church be more interested in getting the US to help Mexico develop their society where it's citizens can prosper? Mexico has plenty of resources, plenty of hard working people. It's their society and government that is corrupt that cripples their development forcing people to come to the US to work illegally.
[/quote]

well considering right now the administration is at war with the catholic church, don't really think they will be working together anytime soon.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1336180664' post='2427269']
If self centered arse portals would stop lieing to themselves they have a right to drug abuse, the drug cartels wouldn't have the market to make billions from inflicting misery on society.
[/quote]

ok welcome to the world of "never gonna happen."

It was a rant. I have no desire to actually prove my point, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that in [b]the long-run legalizing substances will lead to increased use[/b] (although I think legalizing the much less dangerous cannabis plant would save us a pretty good chunk of change and wrest a good chunk of power away from cartels). The bad arse factor will go way down.

"hey Billy wanna hit this crack pipe"
"well gee, I would Jonny, but it's ILLEGAL."
"oh didn't you hear? it's not illegal anymore"
"oh then nevermind, light me up!"

I mean, does the illegality of substances actually stop people from using? I don't buy that.

[Socrates]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1336112213' post='2426931']
1. to me just being born somewhere should not make you more privilaged than someone else. an american can purposly be ignorgant and lazy while an immigrant can be smart and hardworking and yet the american get to be privilaged because of where he was born.

2.but what if they were unjustly refused access to the united states because of nothing they did but because of some dealing with then who is racist, sexist, bigoted.... pick whichever one works?
[/quote]
1. If someone wants to live in this country and enjoy the benefits of US citizenship, then they need to obey the lawful requirements for becoming a citizen. Just as if I decide I want to leave America and live elsewhere (Canada, England, Germany, France, wherever), then I should obey the citizenship or work laws for that country. I'm not entitled anything from those countries just because I want to sneak in. Whether there are lazy or ignorant Germans or Frenchmen does not change this.

2. "Racist," "sexist"? Please. Give me a flooping break. Do have an actual argument with real facts to back it up, or can you just spout off p.c. leftist buzzwords ("racist," sexist," etc.)? As the vast bulk of immigrants to the US are from Mexico and other non-white immigrants, whom current policy makes it easier to become citizens than white Europeans, if there's "racism," it's not towards Hispanics. And I wasn't aware that either women or men were being excluded in bulk in favor of the opposite sex. Son, you disappoint me. I don't think you're even trying.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1336178774' post='2427261']
[side rant tangent]

let's not forget the US-led war on drugs that has inadvertently funneled all sorts of capital into violent criminals who can make life a desperate hell for those living in their territories.

But that's [i]their [/i]problem after all, not mine. They best stay on their side of the fence unless they can earn their way in here like my ancestors did a hundred years ago.

It's much better this way tho. The only reason I really want the drug war to end is because I'm a hippie drug-addict. Has nothing to do with the Mexican corpses racking up because of it or nething.

[/side rant tangent]
[/quote]
It's all the fault of Big Bad America persecuting those poor innocent Mexican drug cartels.

Of course.

[Ice_nine]

u haz the uncanny ability to set up da strawmenz

[havok579257]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1336342998' post='2427764']
1. If someone wants to live in this country and enjoy the benefits of US citizenship, then they need to obey the lawful requirements for becoming a citizen. Just as if I decide I want to leave America and live elsewhere (Canada, England, Germany, France, wherever), then I should obey the citizenship or work laws for that country. I'm not entitled anything from those countries just because I want to sneak in. Whether there are lazy or ignorant Germans or Frenchmen does not change this.

2. "Racist," "sexist"? Please. Give me a flooping break. Do have an actual argument with real facts to back it up, or can you just spout off p.c. leftist buzzwords ("racist," sexist," etc.)? As the vast bulk of immigrants to the US are from Mexico and other non-white immigrants, whom current policy makes it easier to become citizens than white Europeans, if there's "racism," it's not towards Hispanics. And I wasn't aware that either women or men were being excluded in bulk in favor of the opposite sex. Son, you disappoint me. I don't think you're even trying.
[/quote]

2. so in your mind, someone who works in immigration, actually everyone who has ever been in immigration has had never been racist, sexists, bigioted ever? thats the arguement your going to use? my point is if someone an illegal immigrant is dealing with is bigioted towards them they have no way to complain about being treated unfairly. they have no representation. they are at the mercy ofwhomever they are dealing with. heck it could just be adisgruntled employee who is having a horrible day and is looking for someone to take it out on. is this right?

this is shows exactly why repbuplicans are just like democrates. republicans are all against big bad government when it intrudes on your taxes, your money and giving so called entitlements to others using their money. they big government is bad and evil. although when it comes to the military,immigration policy, and other such things, big givernment is great and there is absolutly no reason to doubt they would ever do the wrong thing. although when it comes to entitlements and taxes the givernment can do nothing right. democrates are just the opposite. all for big government on taxes, entitlements and usch but when it comes to abortions, contraceptions and morals issues, then government is big and bad and does nothing right. both republicans and democrates want big government, niether are for smaller government.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1336280046' post='2427570']
ok welcome to the world of "never gonna happen."

It was a rant. I have no desire to actually prove my point, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that in [b]the long-run legalizing substances will lead to increased use[/b] (although I think legalizing the much less dangerous cannabis plant would save us a pretty good chunk of change and wrest a good chunk of power away from cartels). The bad arse factor will go way down.

"hey Billy wanna hit this crack pipe"
"well gee, I would Jonny, but it's ILLEGAL."
"oh didn't you hear? it's not illegal anymore"
"oh then nevermind, light me up!"

I mean, does the illegality of substances actually stop people from using? I don't buy that.
[/quote]Making things illegal (substances or behaviors) has never, nor will ever eliminate the substance or behavior. It does limit the use of substances and behaviors. Come on, life imprisonment or death penalty doesn't eliminate murder.

Let me ask you a serious question, do you think legalizing marijuana would increase or decrease it's usage by the general population and specifically, teens?

Regardless of whether the US enforces border security for illegal immigrants or illegal drugs, it is the right of the community (Nation) to do so, and it is not immoral. What [b]is[/b] immoral is not protecting the security and rights of the citizens.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1336360133' post='2427897']
2. so in your mind, someone who works in immigration, actually everyone who has ever been in immigration has had never been racist, sexists, bigioted ever? thats the arguement your going to use? my point is if someone an illegal immigrant is dealing with is bigioted towards them they have no way to complain about being treated unfairly. they have no representation. they are at the mercy ofwhomever they are dealing with. heck it could just be adisgruntled employee who is having a horrible day and is looking for someone to take it out on. is this right?

this is shows exactly why repbuplicans are just like democrates. republicans are all against big bad government when it intrudes on your taxes, your money and giving so called entitlements to others using their money. they big government is bad and evil. although when it comes to the military,immigration policy, and other such things, big givernment is great and there is absolutly no reason to doubt they would ever do the wrong thing. although when it comes to entitlements and taxes the givernment can do nothing right. democrates are just the opposite. all for big government on taxes, entitlements and usch but when it comes to abortions, contraceptions and morals issues, then government is big and bad and does nothing right. both republicans and democrates want big government, niether are for smaller government.
[/quote]
There are plenty of immigration lawyers and Catholic Charities helps make them available to the immigrant population here in Florida. It's one thing to defy the lawful order, it's another to lawfully seek redress. We haz it.

Again, you resort to childish analysis, choosing extreme simplifications to justify your opinon. Historical evidence of human behavior pretty much proves we aren't ever perfect. So pick your solution. Anarchy or totalitarinism. (or option C, some system in between that requires regular adjustment and tweaking).

[Ed Normile]

Too much to read here, I made it through the first page so if somebody already made this point, excuse me. The Constitution outlines the role of the federal government and the role of the states. The States are supposed to enforce the laws the federal government enacts using their local policies. Any intrusion by the federal government on the states ability to enact or enforce these laws is wrong constitutionally. We live in a Republic in America, those that want a different style of government need to move to either a communist or socialist country where the government runs every aspect of their lives.

ed

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1336136923' post='2426981']
Which brings us back to the immigration issue. Shouldn't the Church be more interested in getting the US to help Mexico develop their society where it's citizens can prosper? Mexico has plenty of resources, plenty of hard working people. It's their society and government that is corrupt that cripples their development forcing people to come to the US to work illegally.
[/quote]

i don't think the obama administration listens to anything the Church says these days....