Succession Of Lies

[reyb]

It is my response to cmotherofpril since she said...

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1334728759' post='2420067']
God does not condemn those who earnestly seek His face, so I hope that although we totally disagree on this and always will, that we both find He who calls our name.
[/quote]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334729278' post='2420068']
Yes, it is correct but you must honestly do it. Now, If your conviction is true to your heart, can you now destroy all barriers between you and your brothers? Can you now give up all sacraments and teachings about apostolic succession and other catholic claims and doctrines so that you will become one your brother protestants?
[/quote]

Why I ask her to do it? Or why I am asking you to do it?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335133298' post='2421927']



...because you cannot find any document pertaining to this ‘resurrection of saints’ except the scripture itself which is our very issue. Whether this ‘resurrection of saints’ is a historical event or not. To you, it is a historical event. To me, it is just a story.
[/quote]

The Scriptures are documentation, but its your choice to believe it or not.

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1335134180' post='2421939']
The Scriptures are documentation, but its your choice to believe it or not.
[/quote]

I know the writers of the scriptures are telling the truth about Christ and I accepted them to be true and from God. But, I do not accept your Church's interpretation to the scripture regarding the historical realization of the coming of Christ because I know too that there is no gospel at all or coming of Christ that took place more or less 2000 years ago. It is just a 'belief 'or 'orally transmitted tradition' by the early Jewish Christians.

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1335104720' post='2421853']
That is your choice Reyb but we do. You either have faith or you don't. You either believe Jesus Christ son of the Living God, rose from the dead or didn't. Faith seeks understanding, but faith comes first, it is more than just the accumulation of probabilities. In Hebrews it says faith is "[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][color=#000000]. [/color][/size][/font][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] "the [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]substance[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] of things to be [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]hoped[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] for, the evidence of things that appear not" .[/size][/font][/color]

[size=3][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Church says:"[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] it is evident that this "light of [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]faith" is a [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm"]supernatural gift[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] and is not the [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10733a.htm"]necessary[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] outcome of assent to the motives of credibility. No amount of study [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]will[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] win it, no [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08066a.htm"]intellectual[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] conviction as to the credibility of [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htm"]revealed[/url][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12738a.htm"]religion[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] nor even of the claims of the [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] to be our [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm"]infallible[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] guide in matters of [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]faith, [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]will[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] produce this light in a [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]man's[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]mind[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]. It is the [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm"]free gift of God[/url].[/size]

May the Holy Spirit enlighten you, Christ welcome you, and God keep you.
[/quote]

And how can you have it? Is it not by faith alone even without seeing Christ himself? To me, this 'free gift from God' cannot be yours unless you see Christ himself or you are totally innocent about everything.

[Papist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335134596' post='2421946']
I know the writers of the scriptures are [b]telling the truth[/b] about Christ
[/quote]
Prove it.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335134596' post='2421946']
and I accepted them to be [b]true and from God[/b].
[/quote]
Prove it.

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1335136573' post='2421969']
Prove it.


Prove it.
[/quote]

You cannot teach a man to see other than to say to him, 'open your eyes and you will see it'.

[Norseman82]

reyb,

What are you trying to get at here? I'm an educated person, but following these 4 pages makes me dizzy.....

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335136543' post='2421968']
And how can you have it? Is it not by faith alone even without seeing Christ himself? To me, this 'free gift from God' cannot be yours unless you see Christ himself or you are totally innocent about everything.
[/quote]

You are wrong. If I had to see Christ BEFORE I believed in him that I have no faith.


Hebrews:11:1 Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.

If you are truly interested in getting this faith, you simply ask God to grant it to you.

[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=4][left]Faith has to do with things that are not seen and hope with things that are not at hand.[/left][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][b][left][url="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaqui192518.html"]Thomas Aquinas[/url][/left][/b][/size][/font][/color]

[left][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=4]Faith is not something to grasp, it is a state to grow into.[/size][/font][/color][/left]
[left][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][b][url="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150708.html"]Mahatma Gandhi[/url][/b][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=4]To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][b][url="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaqui186900.html"]Thomas Aquinas[/url][/b][/size][/font][/color]

[/left]

[Jesus_lol]

Duh, obviously all of you are wrong, because FAITH. Go read all of scripture and then come back and talk once you have seen my light

[mortify]

reyb, your pride exceeds you

[Papist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335137047' post='2421975']
You cannot teach a man to see other than to say to him, 'open your eyes and you will see [s]it[/s] what you want'.
[/quote]
I fixed it to be more accurate to what you are saying.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

i have a question for you reyb. Where does the wind come from and where does it go?

[sixpence]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335137047' post='2421975']
You cannot teach a man to see other than to say to him, 'open your eyes and you will see it'.
[/quote]

well what is the purpose of all these other words you are saying then??

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1335103507' post='2421852']
Interesting question. I would think they would have gone to paradise with Jesus because after He died He descended to hell and opened the gates for them. Have you read the ancient sermon for Holy Saturday? I think it is one of the most beautiful sermons ever written.
[/quote]
[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1335133165' post='2421925']
No, you think you know my beliefs, and you presume to rid me of them.

But if you are so focused on trying to find Christ as experienced by the first generation, I'm sorry to say that you're going to be sorely disappointed. Especially if you don't read Koine Greek, because then you're relying on someone else's translation of another person's interpretation of another person's copied interpretation of their written account, which, on the human level, had a very different audience in mind.

All we today can hope for are the stories of Christ handed down to us by our forefathers. Two-thousand years have passed. I, as a Catholic and a sophomoric scholar, take comfort in a spiritual and intellectual tradition that can trace its line directly to these first generation believers.

We must have faith, as Cmom said.
[/quote]
[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1335136573' post='2421969']
Prove it.


Prove it.
[/quote]
[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1335142937' post='2422016']
reyb,

What are you trying to get at here? I'm an educated person, but following these 4 pages makes me dizzy.....
[/quote]
[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1335144026' post='2422020']
You are wrong. If I had to see Christ BEFORE I believed in him that I have no faith.


Hebrews:11:1 Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.

If you are truly interested in getting this faith, you simply ask God to grant it to you.

[left]Faith has to do with things that are not seen and hope with things that are not at hand.[/left]

[left][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][b][url="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaqui192518.html"]Thomas Aquinas[/url][/b][/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=4]Faith is not something to grasp, it is a state to grow into.[/size][/font][/color][/left]
[left][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][b][url="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150708.html"]Mahatma Gandhi[/url][/b][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=4]To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][b][url="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaqui186900.html"]Thomas Aquinas[/url][/b][/size][/font][/color][/left]
[/quote]


You are truly blessed if you put your trust in Christ even without seeing him (John 20:29) nevertheless you must put your faith to the real one and not to the other Jesus (2 Cor 11:4) otherwise your faith is wasted. Yes, there is another Jesus different from your historical Jesus and even during the time of the apostles, they already warned us that ‘there are false teachers among you’ (2 Peter 2:2) preaching a different Christ and proclaiming He has already come using their letters, prophecies or report (2 Thess 2:2). These teachers are not witnessess of Christ. They are simply readers or listeners of their works but become teachers preaching a false gospel which is no gospel at all (Gal 1:7)

So, how can you be sure that they are not referring to your early fathers since they did all these things?

This is without doubt. If you really know the real Jesus you should know the other Jesus as well since truth by its very nature exposes lies. Now, if you can see only one Jesus it only follows you do not really know Him and you believe a lie but because of faith you see it to be true. By faith a lie can be seen as truth since you accepted their definition of faith. Your scholar’s usage of faith is one example of it. The idea, ‘To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible’ is a nature of that faith which comforts blind followers by justiying they are in the correct path but they are not. This kind of faith will stop you seeking the truth from the lips of God himself since you already claiming, and that is by faith, having the knowledge of truth from God too.

But that is not the kind of faith all witnesses is saying. Their faith is not rested on nothing except in their willingness to believe. Do you think Apostle Paul put his faith to Jesus Christ before he saw him? Do you think all of these witnesess put their faith to God before they see Christ? Is it not after they have seen Christ? Therefore, Christ is the reason why they have that kind of faith.

Now, regarding your statement ‘You are wrong. If I had to see Christ BEFORE I believed in him that I have no faith.’

As if you are telling me, faith in Christ comes first because if you see him, it is not faith anymore. You already know him.

Again you will be correct if you can recognize him but it is already written, ‘no one has recognized him’. All witnesses put their faith in him although they have seen him because when they saw him they did not recognized him and they only realized he is the Christ after He left them.

You used Hebrew 11:1

[indent=1][b]‘Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.’ [/b][/indent]

As if faith itself that gives hope and assurance.

To me, (after I have seen the unseen), ‘Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.’

Therefore, Christ is the reason for having a kind of faith assuring what I hope for and on things not yet known to me.


You accepted the tuthfullness of the ‘historical realization of the coming of Christ’ Why then, you are now saying, these resurrected saints are in paradise or hell or whatever. Do you think, these words signiying physical realities?

Again, You also said Moses ‘met’ God (because it seems you want to justify that Moses seen Christ only in hell - I am just assuming this is what you are telling me). Can anyone see God without seeing Christ?

I know you believed with all your heart that your Jesus is the same Jesus all of these witnesses are proclaiming but Jesus is the mystery of God and only God can reveal him to any man. Even witnesses cannot give or handed-down to you this Jesus. No one can say this is Christ or that is Christ as it is written in Luke 17:22-25.

So how come your early fathers can ‘handed-down’ to you the real Christ?

I am not your enemy. I am simply informing you that you need to seek the real Christ.

Edited April 24, 2012 by reyb

[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335238339' post='2422494']
So how come your early fathers can ‘handed-down’ to you the real Christ?
[/quote]

Your last post was very hard to follow. Is your point basically that the early Church Fathers were in fact corrupt? If so, which of the groups that opposed them do you believe were actually in the right? And which specific Church Fathers do you have an issue with?