Succession Of Lies

[reyb]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1335096218' post='2421841']
reyb yes the dead did rise upon jesus death but it is not in the sense of the final judgement and the second coming as far as i'm aware a bit more like the trailer for a movie.Bad example i now. Which leads me to ask indeed, was this a temporary or do these still walk among us or did they ascend ?
[/quote]

I do not know how to answer your question because I do not believe in this historical event. Try to ask some priest and bishops about it. (where are these resurrected saints?)

[reyb]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1335096328' post='2421842']
Jesus' authority is upon the most precious body and blood. It is biblical,the last supper, and whom has been given this authority to celebrate the mass? The Apostles/Priests.
[/quote]

Well again ask your priest.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335072908' post='2421825']
Meaning, Luke is not an eyewitness of Jesus Christ. Am I correct?
-------------------------

Knowing Christ is the same as knowing God (see John 8:19) and seeing Christ is the same as seeing God.(see John 14:8-9). Now, you said ...



Are you trying to justify that after Moses ‘met’ God nevertheless, God remain a mystery to him. So, my question is this:
Is Moses a witness of Christ or not?
[/quote]
St. Luke was a companion of ST. Paul. ST Paul saw Christ.
Moses met God when he got the 10 Commandments. Meeting someone is NOT the same as "knowing" someone. Its like asking and ant who has seen a human if he [i]knows [/i]the human being in front of him.
Moses saw Christ when Christ descended into hell and opened the gates of heaven.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335079563' post='2421832']
First, I am not expecting something like CNN or whatever during that time. But having an event like this -resurrection of the dead in a cemetery- is not a small thing to ignore by anyone. so there must be marks or proof of this historical event in whatever form. But there is none.
[color=#0000cd]Yeah you are and yeah there is - its called the SCRIPTURES.[/color]
[color=#0000cd]Again you are expecting CNN or a newspaper to have covered cover the event and have stored a document for over 2000 years in an obscure fought over part of the world.[/color]

Again, since you believe these things are historical events. Please tell me if these events (see verses below) happened with chronological order. (Historical events are always in chronological order because of time)


[color=#0000cd]Only if you are writing a newspaper report, the Scriptures are not newspapers[/color]
--------
[indent=1]
[b]The Death of Jesus[/b][/indent]
[indent=1]
[b]45[/b] From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. [b]46[/b] About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, [i]“Eli, Eli,[/i][b][c][/b] [i]lema[/i] [i]sabachthani?”[/i] (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[b][d][/b][/indent]
[indent=1]
[b]47[/b] When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”[/indent]
[indent=1]
[b]48[/b] Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. [b]49[/b] The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”[/indent]
[indent=1][b]50[/b] And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.[/indent]
[indent=1][b]51[/b] At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split [b]52[/b] and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. [b]53[/b] They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[b][e][/b] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

[b]54[/b] When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

[b]55[/b] Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. [b]56[/b] Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph,[b][f][/b] and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.[/indent]
---------------------------
What I am saying is this:
Did the centurion saw the following?[list=1]
[*]death of Jesus, and then
[*]the temple curtain torn into two, and then
[*]the earth shook, and then
[*]rocks split, and then
[*]the tombs broke open, and then
[*]the resurrection of the dead, and then
[*]After Jesus resurrection they (resurrected saints) went to holy city and appeared to many people.
[/list]
Again, Did the centurion saw all of these things?
[/quote]

Nobody said the Centurion saw all these things, you are conflating accounts together. If the Centurion was standing at Calvary obviously he wasn't at the temple. He would have felt the earthquake as would everyone in the vicinity. I have no clue if he saw the dead or not, I wasn't there and neither were you. But Scripture says it happened, so it did.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1335096218' post='2421841']
reyb yes the dead did rise upon jesus death but it is not in the sense of the final judgement and the second coming as far as i'm aware a bit more like the trailer for a movie.Bad example i now. Which leads me to ask indeed, was this a temporary or do these still walk among us or did they ascend ?
[/quote]

Interesting question. I would think they would have gone to paradise with Jesus because after He died He descended to hell and opened the gates for them. Have you read the ancient sermon for Holy Saturday? I think it is one of the most beautiful sermons ever written.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335099881' post='2421843']
I do not know how to answer your question because I do not believe in this historical event. Try to ask some priest and bishops about it. (where are these resurrected saints?)
[/quote]

That is your choice Reyb but we do. You either have faith or you don't. You either believe Jesus Christ son of the Living God, rose from the dead or didn't. Faith seeks understanding, but faith comes first, it is more than just the accumulation of probabilities. In Hebrews it says faith is "[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][color=#000000]. [/color][/size][/font][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] "the [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]substance[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] of things to be [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]hoped[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] for, the evidence of things that appear not" .[/size][/font][/color]

[size=3][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Church says:"[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] it is evident that this "light of [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]faith" is a [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm"]supernatural gift[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] and is not the [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10733a.htm"]necessary[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] outcome of assent to the motives of credibility. No amount of study [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]will[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] win it, no [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08066a.htm"]intellectual[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] conviction as to the credibility of [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htm"]revealed[/url][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12738a.htm"]religion[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] nor even of the claims of the [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] to be our [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm"]infallible[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] guide in matters of [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]faith, [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]will[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] produce this light in a [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]man's[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]mind[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]. It is the [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm"]free gift of God[/url].[/size]

May the Holy Spirit enlighten you, Christ welcome you, and God keep you.

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335079563' post='2421832']
First, I am not expecting something like CNN or whatever during that time. But having an event like this -resurrection of the dead in a cemetery- is not a small thing to ignore by anyone. so there must be marks or proof of this historical event in whatever form. But there is none.

Again, since you believe these things are historical events. Please tell me if these events (see verses below) happened with chronological order. (Historical events are always in chronological order because of time)
--------
[indent=1]
[b]The Death of Jesus[/b][/indent]
[indent=1]
[b]45[/b] From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. [b]46[/b] About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, [i]“Eli, Eli,[/i][b][c][/b] [i]lema[/i] [i]sabachthani?”[/i] (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[b][d][/b][/indent]
[indent=1]
[b]47[/b] When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”[/indent]
[indent=1]
[b]48[/b] Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. [b]49[/b] The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”[/indent]
[indent=1][b]50[/b] And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.[/indent]
[indent=1][b]51[/b] At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split [b]52[/b] and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. [b]53[/b] They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[b][e][/b] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

[size=4][b]54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened,[/b][/size] they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

[b]55[/b] Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. [b]56[/b] Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph,[b][f][/b] and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.[/indent]
---------------------------
What I am saying is this:
Did the centurion saw the following?[list=1]
[*]death of Jesus, and then
[*]the temple curtain torn into two, and then
[*]the earth shook, and then
[*]rocks split, and then
[*]the tombs broke open, and then
[*]the resurrection of the dead, and then
[*]After Jesus resurrection they (resurrected saints) went to holy city and appeared to many people.
[/list]
Again, Did the centurion saw all of these things?
[/quote]
[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1335103292' post='2421850']
Nobody said the Centurion saw all these things, you are conflating accounts together. If the Centurion was standing at Calvary obviously he wasn't at the temple. He would have felt the earthquake as would everyone in the vicinity. I have no clue if he saw the dead or not, I wasn't there and neither were you. But Scripture says it happened, so it did.
[/quote]

Read again and then tell me if the centurion see all these things.

Edited April 22, 2012 by reyb

[cmotherofpirl]

I just answered you.

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1335102719' post='2421849']
St. Luke was a companion of ST. Paul. ST Paul saw Christ.
[/quote]

Again, you are simply saying, Luke did not see Jesus Christ. Am I correct?

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1335131869' post='2421909']
I just answered you.
[/quote]

It is already written.

[size=4][b]54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened,[/b][/size] they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

and your answer is still .....

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1335103292' post='2421850']
Nobody said the Centurion saw all these things, you are conflating accounts together. If the Centurion was standing at Calvary obviously he wasn't at the temple. He would have felt the earthquake as would everyone in the vicinity. I have no clue if he saw the dead or not, I wasn't there and neither were you. But Scripture says it happened, so it did.
[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

This doesn't mean they saw what happened at the Temple from where they stood.

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1335102719' post='2421849']
Moses met God when he got the 10 Commandments. Meeting someone is NOT the same as "knowing" someone. Its like asking and ant who has seen a human if he [i]knows [/i]the human being in front of him.
Moses saw Christ when Christ descended into hell and opened the gates of heaven.
[/quote]

You are now saying 'Moses 'met' God but in the absent of Christ? (since you are implying that Moses saw Christ only in hell). Again, are you saying a man can 'see' or 'meet' God without 'seeing' Christ?

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1335132466' post='2421917']
This doesn't mean they saw what happened at the Temple from where they stood.
[/quote]

What does this verse mean then?

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335072695' post='2421824']
Don’t you not realize, I know your belief? Please read again my previous post.
[/quote]

No, you think you know my beliefs, and you presume to rid me of them.

But if you are so focused on trying to find Christ as experienced by the first generation, I'm sorry to say that you're going to be sorely disappointed. Especially if you don't read Koine Greek, because then you're relying on someone else's translation of another person's interpretation of another person's copied interpretation of their written account, which, on the human level, had a very different audience in mind.

All we today can hope for are the stories of Christ handed down to us by our forefathers. Two-thousand years have passed. I, as a Catholic and a sophomoric scholar, take comfort in a spiritual and intellectual tradition that can trace its line directly to these first generation believers.

We must have faith, as Cmom said.

[reyb]

You said …..

[quote]
Yeah you are and yeah there is - its called the SCRIPTURES.
Again you are expecting CNN or a newspaper to have covered cover the event and have stored a document for over 2000 years in an obscure fought over part of the world.
[/quote]

...because you cannot find any document pertaining to this ‘resurrection of saints’ except the scripture itself which is our very issue. Whether this ‘resurrection of saints’ is a historical event or not. To you, it is a historical event. To me, it is just a story.

Edited April 22, 2012 by reyb