Groo the Wanderer Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Jesus said He is returning, so you are calling Jesus a liar. Better run and hide when He gets back...yer in for a whooping. Bet His momma aint too happy either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335426327' post='2423530'] Yes. [/quote] So youre saying a group of early christians invented the lie that he will return? And we need to be saved from this lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335426327' post='2423530'] Yes. [/quote] So youre saying a group of early christians invented the lie that he will return? And we need to be saved from this lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335426327' post='2423530'] Yes. [/quote] So youre saying a group of early christians invented the lie that he will return? And we need to be saved from this lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 (edited) Let me clear this up because it seems you are already judging me that I said ‘Jesus is liar’. Of course I will never say it because, God’s speak thru Jesus, so how can I say God lies? On the other hand, how can I say false Jesus is a liar since there is no historical Jesus at all? Again, I want to refresh your memory regarding our previous discussion on ‘historical realization of the coming of Christ’ and these false teachers. [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335238339' post='2422494'] You are truly blessed if you put your trust in Christ even without seeing him (John 20:29) nevertheless you must put your faith to the real one and not to the other Jesus (2 Cor 11:4) otherwise your faith is wasted. [b]Yes, there is another Jesus different from your historical Jesus and even during the time of the apostles, they already warned us that ‘there are false teachers among you’ (2 Peter 2:2) preaching a different Christ and proclaiming He has already come using their letters, prophecies or report (2 Thess 2:2). These teachers are not witnessess of Christ. They are simply readers or listeners of their works but become teachers preaching a false gospel which is no gospel at all (Gal 1:7)[/b] So, how can you be sure that they are not referring to your early fathers since they did all these things? [/quote] [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1335366930' post='2423176'] Incorrect. You told me/us that I/we are following a different Jesus than you. I/we are not accepting what you say. When St. Paul refers to Jesus, he is referring to the Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity.[b] What St. Paul is talking about in that verse you posted is that beware of people who come preaching and claim what they are teaching is the Good News of Jesus Christ, but are actually not teaching the Good News of Jesus Christ. Hence, this Jesus they are talking of does not exist. Therefore, only one true Jesus Christ exist.[/b] i.e. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. NOTE: My interpretation of scripture is not infallible [/quote] [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335367764' post='2423181'] [b]So, there are teacher who preached a 'non-existent' Jesus different from their Jesus. And these same teachers are preaching about a 'gospel of Christ' which is actually 'no gospel' at all. Do you see it now?[/b] [/quote] [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1335369603' post='2423191'] [b]Yes. I recognized it in your first post. I encourage you to stop preaching falsehood.[/b] [/quote] It is written in 2 Thess 2:1-4 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, [b]saying that the day of the Lord has already come[/b]. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. So, if this historical realization of the coming of Christ is a lie, It only follows this ‘second coming’ is also a lie. Thus, I said…. [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335406005' post='2423457'] [b]Both of these 'comings' are lies or I do not accept (them) to be true[/b]. I am not saying that the message of acts is wrong. What I am saying is your interpretation to these verse is the one 'erroneous' and not the message of the letter itself. [/quote] Edited April 26, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 (edited) [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1335446955' post='2423589'] So youre saying a group of early christians invented the lie that he will return? And we need to be saved from this lie? [/quote] Not invented but rather ‘erroneous’ interpretation to the scripture. They did not do it intentionally although the damage is already done and great. Many people do not seek Christ anymore, They just accept and believe this historical Jesus as the Christ and that's it. Apostle Paul is very angry with them because he said in 2 Cor 11:13-15 [indent=1]13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.[/indent] Edited April 26, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335447641' post='2423591'] Let me clear this up because it seems you are already judging me that I said ‘Jesus is liar’. Of course I will never say it because, God’s speak thru Jesus, so how can I say God lies? On the other hand, how can I say false Jesus is a liar since there is no historical Jesus at all? Again, I want to refresh your memory regarding our previous discussion on ‘historical realization of the coming of Christ’ and these false teachers. It is written in 2 Thess 2:1-4 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, [b]saying that the day of the Lord has already come[/b]. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. So, if this historical realization of the coming of Christ is a lie, It only follows this ‘second coming’ is also a lie. Thus, I said…. [/quote] [b]John 14:[/b] [quote] "Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me. In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be. Where (I) am going you know the way." Thomas said to him, "Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him." Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father. And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him." Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him, "Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me. "I have told you this while I am with you. The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name - he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid. You heard me tell you, [color=#ff0000][b]'I am going away and I will come back to you.'[/b][/color] If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I. [b]And now I have told you this before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe.[/b] I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming. He has no power over me, but the world must know that I love the Father and that I do just as the Father has commanded me. Get up, let us go. [/quote] So, you are interpreting this as St. Paul is telling us Jesus lied? I just can't believe St. Paul is meaning that at the same time being the inspired Word of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335448932' post='2423595'] Not invented but rather ‘erroneous’ interpretation to the scripture. They did not do it intentionally although the damage is already done and great. Many people do not seek Christ anymore, They just accept and believe this historical Jesus as the Christ and that's it. Apostle Paul is very angry with them because he said in 2 Cor 11:13-15 [indent=1]13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.[/indent] [/quote] Also, look into there: 2 Timothy 4:8 Acts 1:11 Philippians 3:20 Matthew 24:30 Matthew 24:32-33 Matthew 25:31 Revelation 1:7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335447641' post='2423591'] It is written in 2 Thess 2:1-4 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, [b]saying that the day of the Lord has already come[/b]. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. So, if this historical realization of the coming of Christ is a lie, It only follows this ‘second coming’ is also a lie. Thus, I said…. [/quote]reyb, That verse is speaking of the second coming of Christ, not the first coming, which had already happened. I'm sure you disagree, but the context is clear, really, as is the unanimous teaching of early Christians, as far as I'm aware. Yes, there certainly was an historical Jesus, for whom we have historical evidence outside the Christian sources (eg: Josephus, for one). Historians, Christian or otherwise, are in agreement that the historical evidence points to a historical Jesus. I'd encourage looking at the purely historical information. May God bless you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335448932' post='2423595'] Not invented but rather ‘erroneous’ interpretation to the scripture. [/quote] So what qualifies YOU - born almost 2000 years after the fact - to be the correct interpreter of Scripture over people who were contemporaries of Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) The Dunning Kruger Effect is what qualifies him. [spoiler]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect[/spoiler] Edited April 27, 2012 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1335453125' post='2423614']
reyb,

That verse is speaking of the second coming of Christ, not the first coming, which had already happened. I'm sure you disagree, but the context is clear, really, as is the unanimous teaching of early Christians, as far as I'm aware. Yes, there certainly was an historical Jesus, for whom we have historical evidence outside the Christian sources (eg: Josephus, for one). Historians, Christian or otherwise, are in agreement that the historical evidence points to a historical Jesus. I'd encourage looking at the purely historical information.

May God bless you
[/quote] [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335447641' post='2423591']
 2 Thess 2:1-4

2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by [b]some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us,[/b] [b]saying that the day of the Lord has already come[/b]. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
… [/quote] I want you to see that these false preachers are saying that the day of the Lord has already come using the prophecy, report or letters supposedly comes from them (from these witnesses like Paul and Luke). Is that letter or books from Luke, Paul and other witnesses you are now holding is about the second coming of Christ? Or Do you consider their letters or books or prophesy report about the second coming? Now, regarding Josephus’ testimonium flavianum, it was believed to be not entirely authentic (see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimonium_Flavianum"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimonium_Flavianum[/url]). Have you ever read in Josephus writings about the ‘resurrected saints’ when Jesus died on the cross? It is very impossible for a historian like Josephus not to write these ‘zombies’ if he really wrote this suppose to be evidence of the existence of historical Jesus. Edited April 27, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1334842817' post='2420582'] Reyb, on what authority do you tell us to abandon a 2000 year old theological tradition? I ask because from your posts, it seems to be based on your own private interpretation of scriptures. Who is to say that my personal interpretation of scriptures is inferior to yours? Especially because my interpretation is informed not only by current biblical scholarship, but a tradition dating back to the early Church Fathers, who were two or three degrees away from the apostles themselves. I can't help but feel that I (along with my Catholic brothers and sisters) have a bit of an upper hand here, bro. [/quote] [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1335485438' post='2423744'] So what qualifies YOU - born almost 2000 years after the fact - to be the correct interpreter of Scripture over people who were contemporaries of Jesus? [/quote] Pope (in your avatar), is my testimony from whom my authority comes from is still necessary for you to see? You will not believe me anyway so what is its importance and urgency? Nevertheless, I will tell you and I am not lying. I am a witness of my Lord Jesus Christ. I have seen what they saw. They gave or 'handed-down' to me their testimonies which are all hidden in mysteries and God reveal it to me thru Christ. Now, I am longing to see Him once again to say sorry and thank you for everything.I know we will meet again because I will leave this world in due time. Papist, second coming is only for those who see the first. (although this coming is just once and for all). Edited April 27, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1335448932' post='2423595'] Not invented but rather ‘erroneous’ interpretation to the scripture. They did not do it intentionally although the damage is already done and great. Many people do not seek Christ anymore, They just accept and believe this historical Jesus as the Christ and that's it. Apostle Paul is very angry with them because he said in 2 Cor 11:13-15 [indent=1]13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.[/indent] [/quote] reyb, Ok, so you believe there is no second coming, and virtually all Christians alive today are decieved. Thankfully though, out of the billions upon billions, you have somehow discovered the truth, and are willing to share it with us. The next question is, what do you believe the truth is? So Jesus never physically appeared on earth? And his second coming will never happen? Are you basically preaching gnosticism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1335501484' post='2423844'] reyb, Ok, so you believe there is no second coming, and virtually all Christians alive today are decieved. Thankfully though, out of the billions upon billions, you have somehow discovered the truth, and are willing to share it with us. The next question is, what do you believe the truth is? So Jesus never physically appeared on earth? And his second coming will never happen? Are you basically preaching gnosticism? [/quote] Up to now you did not get me. Christ is the truth. That truth comes from God himself. God himself will reveal it to you if you seek Christ earnestly. Now I said there is no 'second coming' in the same way of that 'first coming' which was believed and preached by your early fathers because that 'first coming' is a lie. There is no historical realization of coming of the Messiah of the Jews more or less 2000 years ago and therefore, there will be no 'second coming' of that Jesus because that Jesus do not exist. I think you underestimated your enemy - this 'spirit of the world'. You are precisely waiting for nothing thus, I am telling you 'seek Him now'. On the other hand, Christ really comes when God reveal his word to you thru the testimony of these witnesses. And then, you will see Him again because you will leave this world whether you like it or not. Here in Phatmass, I was called in many calling. Now, I am a 'gnostic'. Nevertheless, such 'calling' is not new to me since it is already written in the scripture. Anyway, thank you for the info. I will look into it. Who knows maybe Apostle Paul is also called a 'gnostic'. Edited April 27, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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