thessalonian Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 We are told that Mary is the Mother of the Lord by Elizabeth. [b] [url="http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4782454"]Luke.1[/url][/b] [list=1] [*][[b]43[/b]] And why is this granted me, that the[b] mother of my Lord[/b] should come to me? [/list] Well it seems to me that Jesus is supporting the fact that you can put God in for Lord in the following passage. Matt 22 [b]41[/b]] Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, [[b]42[/b]] saying, "What do you think of the Christ? Whose son is he?" They said to him, "The son of David." [[b]43[/b]] He said to them, "How is it then that David, inspired by the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying, [[b]44[/b]] `The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I put thy enemies under thy feet'? [[b]45[/b]] If David thus calls him Lord, how is he his son?" [[b]46[/b]] And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did any one dare to ask him any more questions. Seems protestants are stumped by the question too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 No thoughts on this? I've never seen it discussed. It seems Jesus is not denying the fact that David is his father, even though Jesus is also clearly addressing the fact that he is God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 What's to be stumped about? It's in accordance with the scriptures that Jesus was to be of the Tree of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1). Not sure from whence the confusion is arising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Where am I saying I am confused? The root of the question is protestants saying "Mary can't be the Mother of God" as if she would have had to prexist him for this to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I guess I don't understand the question(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 This is debate, not Catholic questions. I am making a point. The point in debate is to discuss it. Pro or con. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 you smell of elderberries at communicating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1334600209' post='2418791'] you smell of elderberries at communicating. [/quote] What do you want me to do, write a book in every post so that your small mind can comprehend the point. Edited April 16, 2012 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 yes, please. and use spellcheck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I don't think I've encountered a Protestant who has actually thought of any of the implications of the bit about David. And many I suspect would use the same arguments as against Mary, namely that David would be the father of e human side, but not of God, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1334599199' post='2418771'] This is debate, not Catholic questions. I am making a point. The point in debate is to discuss it. Pro or con. [/quote] So pro Catholic position or con? I'm afraid you probably won't find a huge debate around here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1334596996' post='2418748'] Where am I saying I am confused? The root of the question is protestants saying "Mary can't be the Mother of God" as if she would have had to prexist him for this to be true. [/quote] [color=#0000cd]Concerned as I am about getting my head bit off by your cranky attitude, whoever is asking the question is clueless. Mary is the physical Mother of God:[/color] "And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." Matthew 1:16 [color=#0000cd]by the Holy Spirit[/color]: "But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost." - Matthew 1:20 [color=#0000cd] Mary is also a descendant of David, so therefore Jesus is as well. "Son of" to the Jews means physical son, but also means descendant of as well. So when Jesus is referred to as son of DAVID, it simply means he is a descendant of David thru his mother, and his father[/color] :"To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary." - Luke 1,27 and again "I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and stock of David, the bright and morning star." - Apocalypse 22,16 [color=#0000cd]also[/color] In Luke 32 re read this: [color=#000000] [/color][color=red][size=3]32[/size][/color][color=#000000] He shall be great and shall be called the [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm"]Son of the Most High[/url][color=#000000]. And the [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]Lord God[/url][color=#000000] shall give unto him the throne of [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04642b.htm"]David[/url][color=#000000] his father: and he shall reign in the [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08193a.htm"]house of Jacob[/url][color=#000000] for ever. [/color][color=red][size=3]33[/size][/color][color=#000000] And of his [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm"]kingdom[/url][color=#000000] there shall be no end.[/color] [color=#000000]or [/color]"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:" - Matthew 1,1 [color=#0000cd]Mary as a "son of David" [/color] [color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1](b) [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Tradition[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] tells us that [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Mary[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] too was a descendant of [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04642b.htm"]David[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]. According to [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/num036.htm#vrs6"]Numbers 36:6-12[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1], an only daughter had to [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]marry[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] within her own [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05782a.htm"]family[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] so as to secure the [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]right[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] of inheritance. After [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08580c.htm"]St. Justin[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] ([/size][/font][/color][i]Adv. Tryph.[/i][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] 100) and[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]St. Ignatius[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] ([/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0104.htm"][i]Letter to the Ephesians[/i] 18[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]), the [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Fathers[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] generally agree in maintaining [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Mary's[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Davidic[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] descent, whether they [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm"]knew[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] this from an oral [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]tradition[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] or inferred it from [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Scripture[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1], e.g. [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom001.htm#vrs3"]Romans 1:3[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]; [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/2ti002.htm#vrs8"]2 Timothy 2:8[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]. [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08459b.htm"]St. John Damascene[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] ([/size][/font][/color][i]De fid. Orth.[/i][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1], IV, 14) states that [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Mary's[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] great-grandfather, [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Panther[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1], was a brother of [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Mathat[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]; her grandfather, Barpanther, was [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Heli's[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] cousin; and her father, [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Joachim[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1], was a cousin of [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Joseph[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1], [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Heli's[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]levirate[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]son. Here [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Mathat[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] has been substituted for Melchi, since the text used by [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08459b.htm"]St. John Damascene[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1], [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08565a.htm"]Julius Africanus[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1],[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]St. Irenæus[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1], [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01383c.htm"]St. Ambrose[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1], and [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07010b.htm"]St. Gregory of Nazianzus[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] omitted the two generations separating [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Heli[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] from [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Melchi[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]. At any rate, [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]tradition[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] presents the [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm"]Blessed Virgin[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] as descending from [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04642b.htm"]David[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1] through [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Nathan[/size][/font][/color] 23 And Jesus himself was beginning about the age of thirty years; being (as it was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was of Heli, who was of Mathat, 24 Who was of Levi, who was of Melchi, who was of Janne, who was of Joseph, 25 Who was of Mathathias, who was of Amos, who was of Nahum, who was of Hesli, who was of Nagge, 26 Who was of Mahath, who was of Mathathias, who was of Semei, who was of Joseph, who was of Juda, 27 Who was of Joanna, who was of Reza, who was of Zorobabel, who was of Salathiel, who was of Neri, 28 Who was of Melchi, who was of Addi, who was of Cosan, who was of Helmadan, who was of Her, 29 Who was of Jesus, who was of Eliezer, who was of Jorim, who was of Mathat, who was of Levi, 30 Who was of Simeon, who was of Judas, who was of Joseph, who was of Jona, who was of Eliakim, 31 Who was of Melea, who was of Menna, who was of Mathatha, who was of [color=#0000cd]Nathan[/color], who was of David, 32 Who was of Jesse, who was of Obed, who was of Booz, who was of Salmon, who was of Naasson, 33 Who was of Aminadab, who was of Aram, who was of Esron, who was of Phares, who was of Judas, 34 Who was of Jacob, who was of Isaac, who was of Abraham, who was of Thare, who was of Nachor, 35 Who was of Sarug, who was of Ragau, who was of Phaleg, who was of Heber, who was of Sale, 36 Who was of Cainan, who was of Arphaxad, who was of Sem, who was of Noe, who was of Lamech, 37 Who was of Mathusale, who was of Henoch, who was of Jared, who was of Malaleel, who was of Cainan, 38 Who was of Henos, who was of Seth, who was of Adam, who was of God. 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