Question

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1334160861' post='2415798']
okay. i give up.
[/quote]

Dearie you had wonderful parents and it shows But for many people out there, they have never seen a happily married couple and simply do whatever the popular tv shows and magazines tell them is acceptable.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1334161012' post='2415803']
Dearie you had wonderful parents and it shows But for many people out there, they have never seen a happily married couple and simply do whatever the popular tv shows and magazines tell them is acceptable.
[/quote]

is that why i married a non-Catholic? lived with him before marriage? had sex before marriage?

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1334160028' post='2415789']
AD is right.
I think we are failing our kids by not talking more about marriage as a vocation instead of something we just fall "in love".
Are there any catholic sites out there doing this? Explaining what marriage and particularly catholic marriages are all about?
[/quote]

Thanks C-mom


[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1334160618' post='2415796']
you don't think when/how much to pray as a couple is a personal preference? i definitely do. (clarifying: between Catholic couples who practice)
[/quote]

Except, I was in my mid-20's before I ever HEARD of a family ACTUALLY praying together outside of Mass. Besides some red-and-grey pictures in my baltimore Catechism from CCD. I only know one family that does, and they introduced me to the Divine Mercy rosary thing. Until 2 years ago I had no idea, NONE at all that you could have a prayer outside of Mass and Grace (wich I'd heard of but never did). And to be honest I have no clue how to engaged in a prayer relationship with my future spouse becuase neither did he. We stumble through grace and pray for eachother, but it's not the same as praying togheter.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1334160782' post='2415797']
Marriage prep today is way too late, because by then the couple has already established a relationship and are probably living together. Kids need to hear married people talk about this stuff when they are in high school or in starting college. Married people need to talk to kids about married sexuality, and spirituality, economics etc before the kids there. Just as an example we fail at teaching NFP because by the time a girl is engaged she has been on the pill for 5-10 years courtesy of her school or gynecologist. We also have to counter this soulmate croutons, because just because you fall in love with someone doesn't mean they are someone you can or should marry.
[/quote]

And thank you again c-mom. This world does in NO way prepare you for the vocation of Marriage, which is helping the other to get to Heaven, not to get their freak on.
[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1334161358' post='2415807']
is that why i married a non-Catholic? lived with him before marriage? had sex before marriage?
[/quote]

Dunno your particular past but you're kinda making my point. Wouldn't it of been better to spare yourself that pain, especally if you, as a Catholic weren't interested it to begin with?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' timestamp='1334161564' post='2415808']Dunno your particular past but you're kinda making my point. Wouldn't it of been better to spare yourself that pain, especally if you, as a Catholic weren't interested it to begin with?[/quote]

i don't understand your point.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1334160782' post='2415797']


Marriage prep today is way too late, because by then the couple has already established a relationship and are probably living together. Kids need to hear married people talk about this stuff when they are in high school or in starting college. Married people need to talk to kids about married sexuality, and spirituality, economics etc before the kids there. Just as an example we fail at teaching NFP because by the time a girl is engaged she has been on the pill for 5-10 years courtesy of her school or gynecologist. We also have to counter this soulmate croutons, because just because you fall in love with someone doesn't mean they are someone you can or should marry.
[/quote]Definitely agree.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1334161685' post='2415809']
i don't understand your point.
[/quote]

That MOST of the world thinks sleeping together and living together is okey-dokey. And that for those who choose otherwise there are few (if any) resources for how to know our signifgant other. If I want advice about how to cheer up my boyfriend the answer online is "sex" if I want to talk with others about him being distant the answer is to "move in". Most other problems the answer is "sex". Is he thinking of popping the question, how's the sex? is he angry, how's the sex? it's all about sex, sex and more sex.

Sometimes, it's just a guy being a guy, but there's no one to talk to about it that talks about the melding of the sexes in chaste relationships.

[MissScripture]

I think what Red is trying to say is that you can't discuss some topics about marriage the way you can with religious life. For example, you can't say, "I'm looking for a guy with XYZ" and have people say, "Oh, well so-and-so is like that. You should look into dating him." Doesn't work that way, and well, if it did, that's really demeaning. So, with things like that, it's going to be very, very different than discerning religious life. And the original post did state, "[color=#282828]It seems like people don't talk about discerning it like other vocations. " I think Red was explaining why it wasn't, and other people started talking about why couples discerning marriage need support. I really don't think Red disagrees with this. But how you discern with another person if you should get married IS different than with a community. For one thing, you can't discern out of a marriage after you "enter." You can't compare people the way you would compare communities. Yes, communities are varied, but you're able to get a lot better feedback on a community than you would an individual person via message board. Other people may know the community or something about it, and on a phorum that is far less likely for an individual person. [/color]

[color=#282828]Again, that is different than supporting Catholic couples. And it's also different than what Oremoose was asking --about how you discern between the priesthood/religious life and marriage. So, there are kind of three different, but related topics going on in this thread, and I think that's where some of the confusion lies. [/color]

[Slappo]

Also you get to move in with a community for a couple years before even taking 1 year of vows. Then you have quite a few more years of living together before you take solemn vows.

Usually we look down on that when people do that discerning marriage

[Slappo]

You discern religious life by visiting communities doing research on what each community is all about and spending oodles of time in prayer. Basically you get to go to speed dating sessions for religious communities.

You discern married life by hitting up the local Catholic book store, going to Theology on Tap, participating in your Newman center or attending a Catholic college and being active in parish social events until someone of the opposite gender catches your eye and you hit it off (this list is far from all inclusive...). If you spend oodles of time in prayer as part of discerning marriage, then you never actually meet someone to marry! Honestly it would also be hard to make the change from hours of daily prayer to married life with children where you strive real hard to get in that daily rosary.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1334168070' post='2415865']
You discern religious life by visiting communities doing research on what each community is all about and spending oodles of time in prayer. Basically you get to go to speed dating sessions for religious communities.

You discern married life by hitting up the local Catholic book store, going to Theology on Tap, participating in your Newman center or attending a Catholic college and being active in parish social events until someone of the opposite gender catches your eye and you hit it off (this list is far from all inclusive...). If you spend oodles of time in prayer as part of discerning marriage, then you never actually meet someone to marry! Honestly it would also be hard to make the change from hours of daily prayer to married life with children where you strive real hard to get in that daily rosary.
[/quote]


I'm not concerned with the singlhood and MEETING.

I'm concerned about meeting someone...I'm concerned with the relationship and guidance in that. And I believe that once you meet prayer (alone and together) needs to be just as serious of those who've chosen an order.
[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1334167776' post='2415862']
Also you get to move in with a community for a couple years before even taking 1 year of vows. Then you have quite a few more years of living together before you take solemn vows.

Usually we look down on that when people do that discerning marriage
[/quote]

Wouldn't that make marriage the HARDER vocation to discern?

[cmotherofpirl]

When you discern a vocation you have people, vocation directors, other religious to help you. Who helps couples in our society? Reality TV, sitcoms, popular magazines? Ideally kids learn basic stuff in their families from their parents, but how many intact Catholic familes are out there being role models?

[ImageTrinity]

[quote]I think nowadays, with TV, the internet, radio, etc, we are constantly barraged with "discerning" marriage our entire lives. Society tells us that being in a relationship is "the norm". By the time we get to an age where we are discerning what to do with the rest of our lives, I believe the challenge is to actually turn off that "call" to marriage, so the discernment to the religious life even has a glimmer of a chance.[/quote]

I understand your point, but I have to disagree. At best, the media shows us falling in love and living happily ever after, and at worst it shows us shacking up and spending thousands of dollars on a ridiculous wedding. We are barraged with false images of romantic love and marriage all the time. Most young people have no idea what a healthy relationship looks like and the idea of self-donative, self-giving love is entirely foreign to our generation.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Oremoose' timestamp='1334151620' post='2415727']
Red you are right. But at the same time I'm scratching my head. I decerened in and out of a religious order now I'm home and I don't know if I should just try Religiuos life again...try the diocean priesthood. I think I may not have a preistly vocation I just have a preistly heart. but to the point I don't know...no ones says how you know your vocation is to marragie.
[/quote]
[b]Important question:[/b] Do you have a spiritual director? If not, get one.

You should know, having been in religious life, that no human will be able to reveal God's perfect will to you; only God will reveal that over time. I imagine this is an unusual and perhaps uncomfortable time in your life. Try to let go of whatever chatter is going on in your brain, and just know God is. Go be with Him in adoration, do what's right in front of you, and trust that He who created you will also guide you.


[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1334168070' post='2415865']
[color=#ff0000]You discern religious life by visiting communities doing research on what each community is all about and[/color] [b]spending oodles of time in prayer[/b]. [color=#008000]Basically you get to go to speed dating sessions for religious communities.[/color]
[/quote]
[Emphasis mine] I agree only with the bold section above.

(Please refer to color codes for the following.)
[color=#ff0000]Red section[/color] -- This is not how you discern religious life, in my experience; this is, rather, how you discern communities. Important: KEEP READING.

Black [b](bold)[/b] section -- This is how you discern your Vocation, period. Well, that's my experience with it and what I was taught growing up. Learning about religious life and visiting communities doesn't have to be about figuring out if you're being called to be a religious. Growing up, we see marriage being lived as a vocation EVERY SINGLE DAY. It doesn't matter how fault-ridden the relationship is, it is still the vocation on display. We don't get to live in convents every day of our young lives! Still, we must spend our time in prayer and adoration to know what the Lord wills for our lives.

[color=#008000]Green section[/color] -- Going to visit religious communities is, in my mind, the equivalent of getting to hang out with people of the opposite sex. We experience each other constantly; there is plenty of opportunity to get a general idea of what someone is like. If inquiring more about a community's practices had to be related to the vocation of marriage, I'd imagine it something like asking a potential partner about their hobbies, belief systems, and vocation ideas. It's not exactly the same, but it's comparable. In both situations, each party has to determine if the fit will be "good" or "right", but not necessarily that every opinion is the same or that every day will be filled with rainbows and unicorns and bunnies (if you're in to those things).


[quote name='Autumn Dusk' timestamp='1334168396' post='2415868']
I'm concerned about meeting someone...I'm concerned with the relationship and guidance in that.
[/quote]
If you're concerned about meeting someone, talk to God about it. Find a spiritual director, build relationships with holy religious and holy married people. People all around you are available and willing to help you through the unfamiliar challenges in your life. That being said, why fret the stuff that isn't here yet? You have to be [i]in [/i]a relationship to have relationship challenges!


[quote name='Autumn Dusk' timestamp='1334168396' post='2415868']
And I believe that once you meet prayer (alone and together) needs to be just as serious of those who've chosen an order.
[/quote]
That's something you have to bring to a relationship, no one can make it happen for you. Build relationships with holy people and this shouldn't be a problem. This is a belief you bring to the table, and it will be necessary for you to find out early on if the people you date are on the same page (or are willing to get there).


[quote name='Autumn Dusk' timestamp='1334168396' post='2415868']
Wouldn't that make marriage the HARDER vocation to discern?
[/quote]
No, since they're both equally weighted in possibility. It is extremely important to make the distinction between discerning a PERSON and a VOCATION. If you know you are called to be a husband/father or wife/mother, then you've obviously discerned marriage. With whom you are to enter that type of relationship is a whole other level of discernment but which is rooted in your one true vocation of marriage. (It would be the same as realizing that God is calling you to be set apart, reserved solely for Him and then trying to figure out which community is YOUR community - that place where God wants you to live our your life in service of Him.)


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1334174098' post='2415933']
When you discern a vocation you have people, vocation directors, other religious to help you. Who helps couples in our society?
[/quote]
Spiritual directors, youth ministers, other married lay people. I would argue there are far more resources available for married people these days than for people discerning religious life! I know plenty of holy, married, lay people in the church who would be more than happy (and often are) to talk with singles looking for a spouse and/or couples who are discerning whether they are called to a marriage with each other.

My strongest witnesses to the beauty of all vocations were married to each other. One was my youth minister, and her (now-)husband was youth minister to many other early phatmassers. They showed us constantly what it was to be engaged/married, as well as showing us the joys of religious life. They taught us where the differences lie, why someone would enter into each vocation (calling), and what the bottom line is for each vocation: getting to Heaven.

That woman has continued to be a huge influence in my life, even though I have been discerning religious life for a long time. Now that my religious vocation discernment is "on pause", I imagine she'll be just as influential in my waiting period. And should I start now to seek a partner, I imagine she'll be just as helpful and supportive. And who's helping me through all of this? My spiritual director.

We cannot sit back and cry because we don't have everything handed to us on a silver platter. We have to be our advocates in every area of society. We can lament the passing of the days when this wasn't the case, or we can get out there and be proactive. We can continue to moan, or we can show each other how to live our lives with courage.

Resources are available. Examples are available. [b]Seek and ye shall find.[/b]

[Oremoose]

Fransicanheart thank you. You helped remind me that I am over thinking deserning and now I will return to the basics. Prayer and follow the Holy Spirit's commands.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Oremoose' timestamp='1334190358' post='2416043']
Fransicanheart thank you. You helped remind me that I am over thinking deserning and now I will return to the basics. Prayer and follow the Holy Spirit's commands.
[/quote]
Rock on. I'll be praying for you.