Noah And The Great Flood

[mortify]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1336629393' post='2429362']
This I don't get. The Bible says God created the earth in 6 days. If you are a literalist then you should believe in creation in 6 days. Please humour me by explaining how the Bible is literal except in regard to it's age.[/quote]

And so we come back to semantics. Although I take the Bible seriously, I am not a fundementalist, and so I understand that the words of scripture can have a wider meaning. I don't have a problem with verses having a deeper, spiritual meaning, but I do have a problem when the historicitical force of a verse is reduced to nothing, and so to salvage it only a spiritual meaning is drawn.

Regarding the six days of creation, it's hard to say that a 24hr block of time was meant when the Sun did not even exist, and so there was no orbit which could define time (A passing of a day could have been a thousand years for all we know. ) So the idea of Days referring to segments, even epochs of time, is not all that far stretched. We simply do not know, and the Church Fathers have several opinions on the six days. Some suggested God created everything simultanesouly, and that "days" really referred to an illumination of knowldge in the Angelic mind. In this sense, the progress of creation was not actual in time.

With regards to the flood of Noah, it is not necessary to believe that the waters covered the whole land, or that even every single animal, and every single human died. But that an event with a supernaturla cause occurred, manifesting as a flood of waters, and wiped out virtually all human life, is one that I believe occurred. As far as I am aware, there is not divergence among the early Fathers, but if you know different I would be interested in reading further.

[quote]If you read again what I wrote you will see that I never made such a statement.
excerpt:- [i]The profound thing about Jesus miracles is that even though [u]they are factual accounts [/u]they are also allegories.[/i]

I don't know how Jesus fed a multitude of people with a handful of food, only that he did. It's a mystery and it's a miracle.
We believe that Jesus feeds millions of people with his body and blood everyday, but we don't fully understand the physics of that because if we test the flesh and blood we will see that it still has the accidents of bread and wine. We have a paradox where no natural laws are broken yet a transubstantiation occurs.
[/quote]

Mark, your words have been very calculated, and you have chosen not to answer questions regarding your views on miracles. It leaves me with a lot of uncertainty as to what you actually believe concerning them. Sure, the feading of the multitude was a factual event, but in your mind it seems to be a possible that the people there shared food, as oppose to an actual supernatural event occurring. I personally don't find that to be even a possibility, and strongly disagree with you.

[quote]Can you answer the questioners query on QandA? Why in early Biblical history did God perform a multitude of miracles which cannot be explained in physical terms and today we see no such miracles......[/quote]

The Old Testmanet is not written like a history book, and so vast amounts of time are covered in several pages. What may seem like a succession of events, is really occuring over centuries, if not thousands of years. And so, we are not looking at a great succession of miracles one after another, but rather periods of time where the transcendent is made manifest tot he people. These periods are key parts in salvation history, e.g. Moses and the exodus, Christ and the redemption, etc. After these periods, these great miracles occur rarely, and people reserve to meditating on them, and seeing the small the significant ways God works in every day life.

The last great miracle of Biblical proportions occurred in Fatima Portugal, some one hundred years ago. The Sun miraculously changed colors and spun closer to earth. Even though this is a physical impossibility, it was witnessed by tens of thousands of people, and who knows, perhaps in several centuries it will be said it was all an allegory

[quote] I wouldn't do that! Everybody is entitled to their opinion about unprovable things. Many atheists are very intelligent. I have no reason to have a poor opinion of you. My view of the OT is that where there is a myriad of physical contradictions it is probable that it's because they are allegories. I will leave it to theologically inclined scientists to produce evidence of which is which just as they have done with the age of the earth.
[/quote]

Based on what you said, I think your doubt is more philosophical than scientific.

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://brotherandre.stblogs.com/2007/12/11/the-four-senses-of-scripture/"]http://brotherandre.stblogs.com/2007/12/11/the-four-senses-of-scripture/[/url]
[color=#333333][font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][background=rgb(239, 239, 239)]The literal is the plainest sense inasmuch as it “relates deeds” simply. For instance, the literal sense of the creation of Eve out Adam’s side is that this event related in Genesis actually happened. That Eve was literally formed out of the side of Adam is historical fact.[/background][/size][/font][/color][url="http://brotherandre.stblogs.com/2007/12/11/the-four-senses-of-scripture/#_ftn4"][4][/url][color=#333333][font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][background=rgb(239, 239, 239)] No matter what allegorical meanings can be drawn out of the account (and there are many), the literal sense stands as a reliable historical record. The same can be said of all history related in the Bible: the events related in the historical books of the Old Testament, as well as the Gospels and Acts. The literal sense is not[/background][/size][/font][/color][i]merely[/i][color=#333333][font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][background=rgb(239, 239, 239)] the meaning given by the human author; it is that, but it is much more. It is God signifying his meaning “by words,” as St. Thomas affirmed. In pointing this out, he also declares, with St. Augustine, that there can be more than one literal sense: “Since the literal sense is that which the author intends, [/background][/size][/font][/color][i]and since the author of Holy Writ is God[/i][color=#333333][font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][background=rgb(239, 239, 239)], Who by one act comprehends all things by His intellect, it is not unfitting, as Augustine says (Confess. xii), if, even according to the literal sense, one word in Holy Writ should have several senses.”....[/background][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][background=rgb(239, 239, 239)]Without the literal sense, Holy Scripture would be virtually meaningless, as “All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.”[/background][/size][/font][/color][url="http://brotherandre.stblogs.com/2007/12/11/the-four-senses-of-scripture/#_ftn5"][5][/url][color=#333333][font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][background=rgb(239, 239, 239)] It is important, then, in the modern milieu – with Biblical Modernism still rampant – that the literal truth of the sacred page be vigorously defended. This would include the historical reality of such things as Creation, the Resurrection of Our Lord, his miracles, the interaction of angels in the lives of men (e.g., Abraham, Tobias, St. Peter), the virgin birth, and Our Lord’s promises to the Church. If God cannot teach reliable truth “by words,” then how can the inspired text be reliable when the same Authority teaches “by things themselves”? If Jonas in the whale’s belly was a fiction, then why is not Jesus’ reference to Jonas[/background][/size][/font][/color][url="http://brotherandre.stblogs.com/2007/12/11/the-four-senses-of-scripture/#_ftn6"][6][/url][color=#333333][font=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][background=rgb(239, 239, 239)] also a fiction? For that matter, why is not Jesus’ Resurrection, which was foreshadowed by Jonas, a fiction, too?[/background][/size][/font][/color]

[Laudate_Dominum]

@Aloysius

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1336694360' post='2429587']
The four senses of Scripture:

[url="http://www.cbalincroftnj.org/files/gkoch/4Senses.pdf"]http://www.cbalincro...och/4Senses.pdf[/url]
[/quote]
[quote]the Holy Spirit often teaches
by image and symbol and story.[/quote]
[quote]“In order to discover
the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and
culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating
then current. ‘For the fact is that [u]truth is [b]differently[/b] presented and expressed in the various types
of historical writing[/u], in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression.’”[/quote]

[quote]The water of Baptism, for instance,
effects the cleansing frm sin that washing suggests, but the Church’s understanding of this
sacrament also makes use of the analogical sense of the Scriptures to [b]link the physical sign used
in this sacrament to the passage of the Israelites through the Red Sea[/b],[/quote]
This says to me that as well as having a literal meaning it also has an allegorical meaning!

This first quote of yours seems to me to be fundamentally pertaining to what I have been writing. I have no disagreement with it and I cannot see any disagreement that it would have with what I have written. If I had been blessed with the knowledge and skill of the author I would probably have written much the same thing.
I won't go through your second quote in any detail but it seems to have one fundamental flaw which really stands out.

[quote]
[color=#333333][font=Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=2][background=rgb(239, 239, 239)]If Jonas in the whale’s belly was a fiction, then why is not Jesus’ reference to Jonas[/background][/size][/font][/color][url="http://brotherandre.stblogs.com/2007/12/11/the-four-senses-of-scripture/#_ftn6"][6][/url][color=#333333][font=Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=2][background=rgb(239, 239, 239)] also a fiction? For that matter, why is not Jesus’ Resurrection, which was foreshadowed by Jonas, a fiction, too?[/background][/size][/font][/color]


[/quote]
This comes across as saying that if Jesus makes a reference to the spiritual meaning of a story told allegorically then either the story has to be literal or Jesus is fiction. [b]Fiction has never entered into the discussion. [/b][u]A true story told allegorically is not fiction.[/u] The statement sense makes non.

[quote]he also declares, with St. Augustine, that there can be [b]more than one literal sense[/b]:[/quote]
Apparently we have a different interpretation of literal. If there is an open literal interpretation of a story and there is also a hidden truth which if extracted would have a literal meaning, then while hidden it is not literal because it is wrapped in the clear story and the open literal story is therefore an allegory for this hidden truth. In other words for something to be literal it has to be open and clear on what it is conveying in plain language. I don't think more than one literal sense is possible. But a hidden truth translated from an allegorical story is a literal story.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1337209308' post='2431431']
@Aloysius
[/quote]
Yes if LD says so, then it would be interesting to hear what Al has to say.

[KnightofChrist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJQeYFjt2Mc

[KnightofChrist]

ROCK ON!!! ARKY ARKY WOOTY WOOTY!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMQjYJdtwoc

[Mark of the Cross]

Droll Knight!
If I were Cmom I would consider locking this thread, it's apparently gone past it's use by date.

[mortify]

Relax Mark, you have some unanswered questions

[mortify]

[Mark of the Cross]

guess you're just going to have to learn to control your emotions and find some alt means of coping.

[img]https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/5/24/ysPu_SKMGEqq3-ohpTU9KQ2.jpg[/img]

Edited May 31, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Groo the Wanderer]

i bet Noah, his wife, his sons, and their wives had modest swimsuits on the voyage

[Mark of the Cross]

Teh problem with keeping all those animals in close proximity is that cross breeding becomes a problem.
[img]https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/5/29/5bsYYI-VNEGCSuy_ErfgGg2.png[/img]

[Laudate_Dominum]

I LOL'd.

[dells_of_bittersweet]

This thread should be moved to the lame board.