Noah And The Great Flood

[KnightofChrist]

Did not read the thread, forgive me.

I only wish to state a reality taught by Christ about the writings of Moses.


"if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

And

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead."

[mortify]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1335929621' post='2425935']
I don't understand, I believe the underlined referred to such an event! People made a golden calf and worshipped it. This means the miracles they observed were not enough to convince them that they were in fact miracles. Or it could just be that they did not want God's law and defied him for the purpose of continuing on their sinful ways. Suggesting that a scriptural event has been described in the Bible by the use of an allegorical overlay is not to suggest that it is in error or in any way untrue. God undoubtably has purpose for such puzzles.[/quote]

I don't understand your difficulty, people witness miracles every day and still fall to sin. It's not the experience of a miracle that makes such things impossible. The Israelites lived in an idolotrous nation, is it so hard to believe they would fall back to sucha practice after being rescued? The Bible doesn't give us all the details, we don't know everything that happened there, but that both events are true must be believed. By a Divine Act the waters were parted, the Israelites walked safely through, and yet after their rescue, at some unknown time, a portion reverted to idolatrous worship. We need not presume "allegory," which really means of softening of the reality of these texts in being historical. That is not the way the Church has read these passages of the Bible.


[quote]Undoubtedly! But your figure of about 2k is in conflict with the Biblical version. Refer to my previous Genesis quote.
[/quote]

The two thousand number is based on what would be expected if humans regenerated naturally, but I'm speculating the regeneration was coupled by Divine assistance. In other words, a few people were able to generate the genetic diversity of a couple thousand. I believe the same process was involved at the beginning of human history. But this is just my thought on the matter, and God knows best.

[quote]Some event occurred such as the ones that have regularly occurred throughout earths history. Only this particular mass extinction had divine purpose and intervention. I have no way of knowing the exact mechanism. I'll leave that to the theologians that have spent many years studying the available scientific data.
[/quote]

The bible has revealed to us the mechanism, and its primarily a flood.


[quote]You haven't addressed the quote from the study Bible. Here it is again.


Myths and legends not to be confused in meaning with fiction, but a method of relating information by the use of a colourful story.
[/quote]

We need not suppose these events recorded in the Bible are myths.

[quote]How come you can see allegorical time representations, but not in other events.[/quote]

Sometimes an allegorical interpretation does great violence to the text. You can forexample suggest that the nativity of Christ is merely an allegory. St Luke only wanted to express the reality that is Jesus' closeness with God. But we know such an allegory is contrary to what is actually intended. Likewise, to speculate that the flood never happened, that Noah never built an ark, or perhaps never existed, really does great harm to the Bible, and not just textually, but theologically as well. I think most difficulties in accepting the Flood are based on a young earth creationist worldview, which I agree has many incompatabilities. But the different between a believer and a non believer, is that the Word of God always takes presidence over our own thought. The error is never in scripture, but in ourselves.

[quote]Seems to me that this is saying that the intended audience of that time were not sufficiently educated to understand science in the way we do. And so the appearance of the literal story being like a children's story is simply just because of that. The people had a simplistic knowledge and needed a simplistic description and also that was the way in which people wrote. Even in Jesus time story tellers including Jesus himself relied heavily on parables. The Bible (God) and even as Jesus himself often gave us some real enigmas as well to which no one seems to know the answer. Maybe God's intention is for us to have such discussions? (Where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I.) At mass we read scripture here we are studying it. Bible study is a kind of prayer??
[/quote]

The ancients were not as stupid as many make them out to be. The size and capacity of a modern man's brain is the same as that of an ancient man's. Sure, stories could be convey symbolically, but let us not forget that they could also be carried out historically.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1336108106' post='2426907']
I don't understand your difficulty, people witness miracles every day and still fall to sin.
[/quote]

Did I suggest otherwise? On QandA someone asked why has God gone silent by perfroming all these Biblical miracles in the past but now we don't see any. The answer is God is just as apparent now as he ever was. Miracles happen everyday. People get well from terminal cancers and we make Saints because of them. But always there is the possibility of an alternative for the sceptic to allow for free choice.


[quote]
The Bible doesn't give us all the details, we don't know everything that happened there, but that both events are true must be believed. By a Divine Act the waters were parted, the Israelites walked safely through, and yet after their rescue, at some unknown time, a portion reverted to idolatrous worship.

[/quote]
The Holywood version of the waters parting is unlikely though. God is the author of science he works through science the way a computer progammer works through his program. The parting is more likely to be a tidal type event exposing a land bridge. The event is still true and has divine intervention but gives people the choice of believing it was good fortune. Do you seriously believe people would have the courage to walk into a canion of water? There are many who's faith is so strong that they would put their trust in the Lord but these people would not then abandon him for an idol. I put it to you that the ones who made the golden calf would not have entered the water unless it appeared natural.


[quote]We need not presume "allegory," which really means of softening of the reality of these texts in being historical. That is not the way the Church has read these passages of the Bible.[/quote]

allegory [ˈælɪgərɪ][i]n[/i] [i]pl[/i] [b]-ries[/b]
[b]1.[/b] (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) (Fine Arts & Visual Arts / Art Terms) a poem, play, picture, etc., in which the apparent meaning of the characters and events is used to symbolize [b]a deeper moral or spiritual meaning[/b]

[quote]The two thousand number is based on what would be expected if humans regenerated naturally, but I'm speculating the regeneration was coupled by Divine assistance. In other words, a few people were able to generate the genetic diversity of a couple thousand. I believe the same process was involved at the beginning of human history. But this is just my thought on the matter, and God knows best.[/quote]
Undoubtably it could have been literal by means of God's direct intervention of breaking his own natural laws numerous times, but I can't see reason in that. Could God defy the laws of logic? I suppose he could, but Apotheoun once said that logic is God's nature, which rang bells with me and I find it unlikely that God would need to go against his nature. More likely NF is a true story related in an allegorical way. You have already mentioned that the time terms can be figurative. 1000years can be any large amount of time. 40 and 7 occur frequently.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote]The bible has revealed to us the mechanism, and its primarily a flood.[/quote]
Not in dispute.

[quote]We need not suppose these events recorded in the Bible are myths.[/quote]

Myth can also mean a false story, but the preface, I'm sure, is not using it in that sense. More like the following. (Ostensibly meaning that it [u]appears[/u] as a false story but is not suggesting that it is.)


[i]a[/i] [b]:[/b] a usually traditional story of ostensibly [b]historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon[/b] [i]b[/i] [b]:[/b] [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parable"]parable[/url], [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/allegory"]allegory[/url]

2
[i]a[/i] [b]:[/b] a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially [b]:[/b] one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society


[quote]
Sometimes an allegorical interpretation does great violence to the text.

[/quote]
Jesus parables did violence to the text????
[quote]You can forexample suggest that the nativity of Christ is merely an allegory. St Luke only wanted to express the reality that is Jesus' closeness with God. But we know such an allegory is contrary to what is actually intended. Likewise, to speculate that the flood never happened, that Noah never built an ark, or perhaps never existed, really does great harm to the Bible, and not just textually, but theologically as well.[/quote]

This is being extreme. Again I am not suggesting that NF didn't occur.

[quote]I think most difficulties in accepting the Flood are based on a young earth creationist worldview, which I agree has many incompatabilities. But the different between a believer and a non believer, is that the Word of God always takes presidence over our own thought.[/quote]
????

[quote]The error is never in scripture, but in ourselves.[/quote]
Or more precisley in how we read it. Interpretation


[quote]The ancients were not as stupid as many make them out to be. The size and capacity of a modern man's brain is the same as that of an ancient man's. Sure, stories could be convey symbolically, but let us not forget that they could also be carried out historically.[/quote]

Again you are misinterpreting. If I started a conversation with an ancient regarding coulombs law he wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. I would undoubtedy impart a message by way of an allegory that would make sense in his knowledge. I lack education and don't know very much but I do not consider myself unintelligent. I have a large head and probably it contain a large brain. Silly sometimes but not stupid.

Apologies for the spelling errors gotta go.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1336094705' post='2426759']
Did not read the thread, forgive me.

[/quote]
Forgiven bro!

[Laudate_Dominum]

Every time someone denies the historical truth of a bible story there's a little fairy somewhere that falls down dead.

[mortify]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1336177410' post='2427250']
The Holywood version of the waters parting is unlikely though. [/quote]

I'm actually not familiar with the holywood version, but if you mean to say a miracle is unlikely, then I disagree with you.

[quote]God is the author of science he works through science the way a computer progammer works through his program.[/quote]

Sure, God works through creation providentially, but that's not the only way He operates. At times His omnipotence is majestically made manifest when the laws of nature are broken.

[quote]The parting is more likely to be a tidal type event exposing a land bridge.[/quote]

Is this based on anything exegetically, or just a lack of faith in God's omnipotence?

[quote]The event is still true and has divine intervention but gives people the choice of believing it was good fortune.[/quote]

Exodus 14:21-22 records the sea being parted, such that a wall of water was to the right and left sides of the Israelites as they crossed. Suggesting this was merely a change in tide that the Israelites happened to stumble upon providentially really undermines the text here. I don't find your argument in the next quote convincing enough.

[quote]Do you seriously believe people would have the courage to walk into a canion of water? There are many who's faith is so strong that they would put their trust in the Lord but these people would not then abandon him for an idol. I put it to you that the ones who made the golden calf would not have entered the water unless it appeared natural.
[/quote]

I almost want to say you're being very naive about human nature here. Is it really that hard to believe some humans would fall even after witnessing such a stupendous event? Then what of Peter and Judas? What of myself when God has clearly made things present to me, and I still fall into the same old sins? What of any man who was betrayed by his closest friend? Humans betray, fall back, and return to old habits all the time. I don't find your argument here at all convincing enough to disregard the Bible'd description for a mere tidal event.
[quote]
Undoubtably it could have been literal by means of God's direct intervention of breaking his own natural laws numerous times, but I can't see reason in that. [/quote]

As I said, I don't see reason in reducing this event to mere allegory. It very likely could have happened, precisely as the Bible said it did, but because we have been projecting it into a young earth creationist world view, we could not imagine it.

[quote]More likely NF is a true story related in an allegorical way. You have already mentioned that the time terms can be figurative. 1000years can be any large amount of time. 40 and 7 occur frequently.
[/quote]

In what way is it a true story? Noah being a merchant caught in a local flood? Sorry, I just don't find that plausible. I think the reality is our mindsets are so secularized that we have a hard time seeing things as a Christian ought to see them.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1336538511' post='2428997']
I'm actually not familiar with the holywood version, but if you mean to say a miracle is unlikely, then I disagree with you.

[/quote]
I didn't say it wasn't a miracle. I have clearly stated that miracles happen all through history up until this very moment, but not openly and indisputably so. God doesn't prove himself, free choice an' all thet!

[quote]Sure, God works through creation providentially, but that's not the only way He operates. At times His omnipotence is majestically made manifest when the laws of nature are broken.[/quote]
God can and does change events and their results. But I don't think he defies his own nature. (logic) If God wants to save me from being run over by a bus he won't make the bus fly into the air and pass over me. He will make someone push me out of the way or make the bus driver swerve around or brake in time. And people will say "gee you were lucky!"


[quote]Is this based on anything exegetically, or just a lack of faith in God's omnipotence?[/quote]
It's pretty poor form to continually attack a persons faith just because you cannot see reason in what they write!


[i]And when Moses had stretched forth his hand over the sea,[b] the Lord [u]took it away[/u] by a strong and burning wind [u]blowing all the night,[/u] and turned it into dry ground:[/b] and the water was divided.[/i]



[quote]Exodus 14:21-22 records the sea being parted, such that a wall of water was to the right and left sides of the Israelites as they crossed. Suggesting this was merely a change in tide that the Israelites happened to stumble upon providentially really undermines the text here. I don't find your argument in the next quote convincing enough.[/quote]


[i][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=2&ch=14&l=22#x"][22][/url] And the children of Israel went in through the midst of the sea dried up: for the water [u][b]was as[/b] a wall[/u] on their right hand and on their left.[/i]

The bolded seems to be saying that the water was a barrier. There is no inference that it had vertical sides, only that you could not go left or right but only straight ahead. You obviously have not seen the Charlton Heston version where within seconds the sea withdrew a few metres with vertical sides. There is a model of it in Disneyland produced by compressed air blowing the water out of the way. It's probably what gave everyone this fairy tale idea of it. You should be familiar with the fairy tale version you seem to be interpreting it that way.


[quote]I almost want to say you're being very naive about human nature here. Is it really that hard to believe some humans would fall even after witnessing such a stupendous event? Then what of Peter and Judas? What of myself when God has clearly made things present to me, and I still fall into the same old sins? What of any man who was betrayed by his closest friend? Humans betray, fall back, and return to old habits all the time. I don't find your argument here at all convincing enough to disregard the Bible'd description for a mere tidal event.[/quote]
We're not talking about our human propensity to give in to temptation such as stealing or lusting. We are talking about people freely choosing to make an image to worship because they don't want Gods law and want an excuse to yield to their sinful weaknesses.


[quote]As I said, I don't see reason in reducing this event to mere allegory. It very likely could have happened, precisely as the Bible said it did, but because we have been projecting it into a young earth creationist world view, we could not imagine it.[/quote]

It seems to me that you are arguing for a literal young earth creationist version with some amendments where science has proven otherwise to you. The Church teaches that the Bible consists of many allegorical narratives, I cannot imagine why you cannot see that. For an example read Fr Brians blog regarding the ark of the covenant in heaven is an allegory for Mary.
[url="http://catholicquestionsinasecularworld.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/mary-and-most-holy-eucharist.html"][quote]This is why in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 11:19) when St. John mentions the Ark, it was big news: [i]“Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.”[/i] Yet, this is also the end of the chapter and chapter 12 begins by speaking about the “sign in the sky with a woman clothed with the sun.” However, Catholic scholars see this passage differently, for, if you recall, the books of the Bible were written as scrolls with no chapter breaks, the break is artificial and, instead, should be read as one. Therefore, what that means is that the old Ark, while lost, has given way to the “New Ark of the Covenant,” which is Mary.[/quote][/url]



[quote]In what way is it a true story? Noah being a merchant caught in a local flood? Sorry, I just don't find that plausible. I think the reality is our mindsets are so secularized that we have a hard time seeing things as a Christian ought to see them.[/quote]

This is purely an invention of your own I have never made such a suggestion. I don't think you've understood what I have written and can't see that an allegory is a true story written in a way in which [u]the detail is not to be taken as a literal historical account.[/u]
I cannot explain this more clearly. If you don't understand then I'm sorry.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[cmotherofpirl]

[color=#000000]"On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon." So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day." [/color]
[i]Joshua 10:12-13[/i]

[Mark of the Cross]

I'm not a Biblical scholar, but I believe it is generally accepted that the Bible is a mixture of truths and allegories. When Jesus fed thousands from a few loaves and fishes he apparently broke the laws of physics. The profound thing about Jesus miracles is that even though they are factual accounts they are also allegories. In our earlier married life my wife a Filipino and I supported her nephew through uni as well as giving aid to her brother and family. Hard times hit, she lost her job, we had brought her widowed mother to Oz and were fully supporting her. I was cut back in overtime and allowances to a basic salary. Yet whenever it was needed to send money it always seemed to be in our bank account. We weren't much on accounting so it is quite likely that it just happened to be enough. But to me it was uncanny how nothing went wrong making us have to say "sorry we don't have the money." It was the miracle of the loaves and fishes.
I don't see any problem in a creationist ideology if that is your desire.

[mortify]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1336547270' post='2429015']
I didn't say it wasn't a miracle. I have clearly stated that miracles happen all through history up until this very moment, but not openly and indisputably so. God doesn't prove himself, free choice an' all thet![/quote]

There's a semantics issue here that needs to be clarified. When I say "miracle," I'm refering to a Divine Act that is above, contrary to, and outside of nature and its laws. I'm not sure if you deny this understanding of miracles, but it seems to me that you are reducing all acts of God within the laws of nature, as this next quote indicates:

[quote]God can and does change events and their results. But I don't think he defies his own nature. (logic) If God wants to save me from being run over by a bus he won't make the bus fly into the air and pass over me. He will make someone push me out of the way or make the bus driver swerve around or brake in time. And people will say "gee you were lucky!"[/quote]

But God[i] *can*[/i] contravine the laws of nature and make the bus fly over you. Suggesting He can't is why I questioned your faith in God's omnipotence.

[quote]It's pretty poor form to continually attack a persons faith just because you cannot see reason in what they write!
[/quote]

God acts providentially through secondary causes, but He can [i]also[/i] act directly, and in a way that is completely contrary to and above the laws of nature. Your apparent doubt in this, is causing you to reinterpret events in the Bible.



[quote][i]And when Moses had stretched forth his hand over the sea,[b] the Lord [u]took it away[/u] by a strong and burning wind [u]blowing all the night,[/u] and turned it into dry ground:[/b] and the water was divided.[/i]

[i][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=2&ch=14&l=22#x"][22][/url] And the children of Israel went in through the midst of the sea dried up: for the water [u][b]was as[/b] a wall[/u] on their right hand and on their left.[/i]

The bolded seems to be saying that the water was a barrier. There is no inference that it had vertical sides, only that you could not go left or right but only straight ahead. ...snip...[/quote]

Exodus states the water was as two walls to the left and right side of the Israelites, and yet you say there is no inference it had vertical sides? If describing the water being divided as a "wall" is not such an inference, I honestly don't know what is. Accepting the event as described would be very difficult, if one were to say God must work within nature, since nature can not produce such an event.

[quote]We're not talking about our human propensity to give in to temptation such as stealing or lusting. We are talking about people freely choosing to make an image to worship because they don't want Gods law and want an excuse to yield to their sinful weaknesses.
[/quote]

Idolatry is a temptation, but that's beside the point. You seem to be surprised that a group of people would revert to their old ways. I don't find it surprising at all. And I certainly don't find your point about it convincing, that since it's unlikely for the Israelites to have fallen back, the Red Sea crossing must have been a natural event.


[quote]It seems to me that you are arguing for a literal young earth creationist version with some amendments where science has proven otherwise to you.[/quote]

I don't believe the earth is young, so how can I be a young earth creationist?

[quote]The Church teaches that the Bible consists of many allegorical narratives, I cannot imagine why you cannot see that. For an example read Fr Brians blog regarding the ark of the covenant in heaven is an allegory for Mary.
[/quote]

The Bible has many levels to it. The history it records still has a deeper spiritual meaning that can be applied to us. The problem is that too often people reduce these historical events to mere allegory, as if the event never really happened. If the event happened, it was significantly exagerated by the Divine Author, for some mysterious reason.

[mortify]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1336606101' post='2429252']
I'm not a Biblical scholar, but I believe it is generally accepted that the Bible is a mixture of truths and allegories. When Jesus fed thousands from a few loaves and fishes he apparently broke the laws of physics. The profound thing about Jesus miracles is that even though they are factual accounts they are also allegories. In our earlier married life my wife a Filipino and I supported her nephew through uni as well as giving aid to her brother and family. Hard times hit, she lost her job, we had brought her widowed mother to Oz and were fully supporting her. I was cut back in overtime and allowances to a basic salary. Yet whenever it was needed to send money it always seemed to be in our bank account. We weren't much on accounting so it is quite likely that it just happened to be enough. But to me it was uncanny how nothing went wrong making us have to say "sorry we don't have the money." It was the miracle of the loaves and fishes.
I don't see any problem in a creationist ideology if that is your desire.
[/quote]

In other words, the miracle of the loaves and fishes was really a natural event. No laws of nature were broken, though perhaps it seemed that way to some people. It was still a "miracle" in a providential way, in that things naturally alligned in an uncanny way.

That is your interpretation, and I don't agree with you. Call me a simpleton, but I'll stick to believe that the laws of physics were broken, and a supernatural thing occurred that day.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1336620864' post='2429337']
I don't believe the earth is young, so how can I be a young earth creationist?

[/quote]
This I don't get. The Bible says God created the earth in 6 days. If you are a literalist then you should believe in creation in 6 days. Please humour me by explaining how the Bible is literal except in regard to it's age.

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1336621080' post='2429338']
In other words, the miracle of the loaves and fishes was really a natural event.

[/quote]
If you read again what I wrote you will see that I never made such a statement.
excerpt:- [i]The profound thing about Jesus miracles is that even though [u]they are factual accounts [/u]they are also allegories.[/i]

I don't know how Jesus fed a multitude of people with a handful of food, only that he did. It's a mystery and it's a miracle.
We believe that Jesus feeds millions of people with his body and blood everyday, but we don't fully understand the physics of that because if we test the flesh and blood we will see that it still has the accidents of bread and wine. We have a paradox where no natural laws are broken yet a transubstantiation occurs.

Can you answer the questioners query on QandA? Why in early Biblical history did God perform a multitude of miracles which cannot be explained in physical terms and today we see no such miracles. This is not my question! I believe that miracles occur with great frequency today. eg. There was a case of a lady parachute glider who got caught in a storm and ascended thousands of metres above the vertical limit for a number of hours and survived. I believe this would be considered an astronomical miracle, but not of the irrefutable type that are apparent in the OT. Sceptics can claim that because she became unconscious and cold she went into a stasis state. yibbidy yadda.

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1336621080' post='2429338']
Call me a simpleton,
[/quote]
I wouldn't do that! Everybody is entitled to their opinion about unprovable things. Many atheists are very intelligent. I have no reason to have a poor opinion of you. My view of the OT is that where there is a myriad of physical contradictions it is probable that it's because they are allegories. I will leave it to theologically inclined scientists to produce evidence of which is which just as they have done with the age of the earth.

[Mark of the Cross]

My reference to Jesus miracles was that I'm trying to demonstrate that he could alter some physics/chemistry/biology but in doing these things he had an express purpose of giving positive proof that he was the son of God and if you believe in him he will do these things for you, but they will only be obvious to you and not to the sceptic. And thus AD all miracles are 'hidden' having some degree of doubt in them which leaves a hole required to be filled with faith. In the case of Noah's ark Gods purpose was to remove evil mankind and begin again. What was his purpose in breaking so many physical laws? Why not introduce a plague that wipes out humans without disrupting the eco-sphere? It's strange that all of Noah's in-laws were worthy of being preserved while the rest of mankind were not. Do you know anyone that has all great in-laws (LOL) The story gives the impression of a bungling creator who is like an artist that is dissatisfied with his painting so he wipes it off and starts again with the same materials and skill which could only lead to a repeat failure. I have been making an attempt to show that what we see in the NT is quite the opposite. Deep and intelligent text! Fr Brian writes that the ark of the covenant in heaven is Mary. Is it possible that Noah's ark is symbolic of the Church (Christ) in which we find salvation from destruction? Or some similar message.

[cmotherofpirl]

The four senses of Scripture:

[url="http://www.cbalincroftnj.org/files/gkoch/4Senses.pdf"]http://www.cbalincroftnj.org/files/gkoch/4Senses.pdf[/url]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1336694360' post='2429587']
The four senses of Scripture:

[url="http://www.cbalincroftnj.org/files/gkoch/4Senses.pdf"]http://www.cbalincro...och/4Senses.pdf[/url]
[/quote]
I think I understand it. razzle dazzle.