Anti-Catholicism

[Annie12]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1333742955' post='2413731']
You can jump up and down and try to cry that people are just morphing history for some sort of undetermined political agenda but you'd be wrong. Fact: Spanish dictators during WWII allied with Hitler and forced Catholic morals upon their population. Fact: Hitler's anti-Semitism was, in part, inspired by the old school blood libels first thought of by Catholic clergymen. Yes, German nationalism could not have risen without the Protestant Reformation, but the Catholic Church is far from blameless in the matter.

As for your insistence that the Catholic Church isn't people, any faith group can claim that. Protestants will say their faith is based on the Bible, Muslims will claim the Quran, you claim teachings supposedly handed down from Christ himself. It's all the same. Doesn't let your religion off the hook for past events.
[/quote]
Your in denial and your wrong.

[Annie12]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1333774773' post='2413903']
Are you kidding me? seriously? "intellectual criticism is ok unless its about religion, then it is automatically OFFENSIVE ANTI RELIGION HATE SPEECH"??

and then you have the nerve to say [b]I [/b]am being "relative".

Your cognitive dissonance is frankly impressive.
[/quote]
Yes. You never should attack beliefs that people are willing to die for; beliefs that they love more than their own lives. If you do, prepare for battle "Intellectual criticisms" should only be applied to politics. Religion doesn't go by the dirty rules politics does.. Plus, you wouldn't want your beliefs to be torn apart supported by only misconceptions. So, why do it to others?
I have an example. If you make a racist comment about someone, you could just say that it was just words and therefore,could not have possibility hurt anyone by words. However, in truth, you hurt someone deeply and made them feel more distance from the people you represent (what ever that may be, religion, race, political party etc.). You may think this example is too distant from what we are talking about, but the truth is, people define themselves by what they believe, and when that is attacked, it feels like a personal attack on their character.


And BTW, I said you can have your own beliefs about homosexuality last night. I was tired and while I still do think we have the right to belief what we want. I think that unless it goes against your morals to keep your mouth closed, then you really should try not to hurt anyone. Also, I have a few Gay friends so I'm not speaking from a far. I'm speaking from personal experience. I believe all people are loved by God and have a vocation that God himself has given them which would not be the way of life many homosexual people are living right now. Someones vocation is the happiest place where they could be in their lives. So, by turning down or not discovering their vocation, Homosexuals are really cheating themselves out of something unimaginably beautiful.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1333804161' post='2413936']

Your in denial and your wrong.
[/quote]Just thought I'd help you out with your debate here. Please don't consider it as intellectual criticism.

Weather is rain, you need to use whether
You're is the contraction for "you are". Your is a posessive pronoun.

Since I'm non-catholic and you are, did I just commit an "anti-catholic" act?

[Annie12]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1333803031' post='2413929']
I agree with what Lisa said about criticism. It is GOOD that we are criticized. Intellectual criticism, whether it be about actions the Church has been a part of or of doctrines and teachings, is a way to purify, grow in holiness, and realize our sinfulness and need for God.

Right now in my archdiocese a trial is going on because of the sexual abuse of minors by clergy and because of the moving of those abusers from parish to parish. Are some of the people involved in this trial "anti-catholic"? Probably. Is the trial itself "anti-catholic"? No. It would be unjust for this trial not to happen. It wouldn't be happening to begin with if nothing wrong had been done by our hierarchy. I say this with a lot of love for the Church. The only way wounds are healed and sins forgiven is for them to be brought out into the light so that God can transform us.

We sometimes think we are above criticism and the truth is that we are not. We should allow it to purify us. In the light of eternity - Christ gained our eternal life by suffering and dying. Why should we not also suffer and die? In this case it is a death of pride and of status... but it is still a death. In that sense, I do not see anti-Catholicism as something to fight against. Yes, we should protect our rights. No, we shouldn't be trying to get everyone to respect us. Jesus wasn't respected when he was nailed to the cross.

The Church has always flourished where it is most difficult to practice the faith. When it becomes difficult to be Catholic is when we are usually the most faithful and when our holiness grows. It's good to work to make sure that we are treated justly, like when unjust laws are passed, but to put us above criticism is a waste of time better spent uniting ourselves to Jesus.
[/quote]
I completely agree with most of what you are saying, but anti-catholic comments aimed to hurt people, means that people are sinning. When someone says something knowingly and blatantly false about the church, then they are lying. I don't think we should encourage that because we would only be encouraging people to sin. I do think however that God permits anti-Catholicism as a way of helping the faithful grow stronger in their faith. However, I don't think God would encourage such behavior.

[Sister Marie]

Annie, no offense, but neither you nor I are in any position to decide the sinfulness of the actions of another person. Neither of us know what is in their heart and mind... only God does. You are obviously feeling very defensive about an incident which you haven't described to us in this thread and when people feel that way they often "demonize" the other. Instead of thinking about the other person as a human being; someone complex, with varied experiences, and on a journey just like the rest of us, that person becomes the bad guy, or the sinner, or the mean one. That is also a sin because it denies the dignity of the individual. It's also really counterproductive because you leave no room for dialogue.

If I were someone who thought Catholics were crazy... none of your posts would make me feel differently or make me feel like I could ask questions or have a meaningful conversation with you. Your posts, to me, communicate "Don't say anything I don't like because it's a sin." People generally don't say things that they know are blatantly false. They may be false but most people who say them think there is some truth in their statements. No one said anything about encouraging ignorance... in fact, I stated that we should protect our rights.

I'm sure God would not encourage such behavior but I'm also just as sure that he wouldn't encourage us to respond in this way either.

If you would like to share what this is really about maybe all of us could help instead of debating the issue.

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1333804161' post='2413936']
Your in denial and your wrong.
[/quote]
What's so easy for you to say, is so easy for me to disprove.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Passover/History/Medieval/Blood_Libels.shtml

http://www.iiipublishing.com/religion/catholic/popes/pius_xi_franco.html

So who is in denial now?

[Annie12]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1333806414' post='2413942']
Annie, no offense, but neither you nor I are in any position to decide the sinfulness of the actions of another person. Neither of us know what is in their heart and mind... only God does. You are obviously feeling very defensive about an incident which you haven't described to us in this thread and when people feel that way they often "demonize" the other. Instead of thinking about the other person as a human being; someone complex, with varied experiences, and on a journey just like the rest of us, that person becomes the bad guy, or the sinner, or the mean one. That is also a sin because it denies the dignity of the individual. It's also really counterproductive because you leave no room for dialogue.

If I were someone who thought Catholics were crazy... none of your posts would make me feel differently or make me feel like I could ask questions or have a meaningful conversation with you. Your posts, to me, communicate "Don't say anything I don't like because it's a sin." People generally don't say things that they know are blatantly false. They may be false but most people who say them think there is some truth in their statements. No one said anything about encouraging ignorance... in fact, I stated that we should protect our rights.

I'm sure God would not encourage such behavior but I'm also just as sure that he wouldn't encourage us to respond in this way either.

If you would like to share what this is really about maybe all of us could help instead of debating the issue.
[/quote]
There is no indecent rather I live in a very secular/ anti-catholic place and I am one of maybe 4 young adult in my parish and there are no youth groups and I am also one of 2 Catholics in my school the other being my brother. I am feeling like no one is hearing me.
Of course I know God is the only one who can know what is really on the hearts and minds of others but I am just getting frustrated by some of the users here who insist that anti-Catholicism doesn't exists in the way I am describing it and instead want to say that it is an "intellectual criticism" .
I guess what I am saying isn't coming across like I meant it. my apologies if that is the case . I didn't want to turn this post into a debate, hence the open mic forum. Furthermore, I didn't want to sound Mad. Sorry if I do.
I literally just wanted to know how do we confront anti-Catholicism. However, somehow we got off topic and started trying to define anti-Catholicism. But any who, how do we confront it? All year long in my history class for example I have come up against hurtful statements uttered by my teacher or a classmate . I just want to know what can I do instead of sounding like I'm about to choke someone (which, for the record I wound never do). I would like some feedback from Catholics so I don't start a useless debate again. Thanks.
And for the record I am not mad I am very happy right now! lol!

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1333809578' post='2413952']
There is no indecent rather I live in a very secular/ anti-catholic place and I am one of maybe 4 young adult in my parish and there are no youth groups and I am also one of 2 Catholics in my school the other being my brother. I am feeling like no one is hearing me.
Of course I know God is the only one who can know what is really on the hearts and minds of others but I am just getting frustrated by some of the users here who insist that anti-Catholicism doesn't exists in the way I am describing it and instead want to say that it is an "intellectual criticism" .
I guess what I am saying isn't coming across like I meant it. my apologies if that is the case . I didn't want to turn this post into a debate, hence the open mic forum. Furthermore, I didn't want to sound Mad. Sorry if I do.
I literally just wanted to know how do we confront anti-Catholicism. However, somehow we got off topic and started trying to define anti-Catholicism. But any who, how do we confront it? All year long in my history class for example I have come up against hurtful statements uttered by my teacher or a classmate . I just want to know what can I do instead of sounding like I'm about to choke someone (which, for the record I wound never do). I would like some feedback from Catholics so I don't start a useless debate again. Thanks.
And for the record I am not mad I am very happy right now! lol!
[/quote]
If that's all you wanted than you should have said so from the beginning. No one here is psychic and knows what you meant by anti-Catholicism.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1333806414' post='2413942']
Annie, no offense, but neither you nor I are in any position to decide the sinfulness of the actions of another person. Neither of us know what is in their heart and mind... only God does.
[/quote]

Sister, I respectfully take issue with this. We judge actions, not hearts.Culpability and Judgement are determined by God ( and the court system if applicable) but we are certainly capable of saying an action such as murder or rape or theft is a sin.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1333809720' post='2413953']
If that's all you wanted than you should have said so from the beginning. No one here is psychic and knows what you meant by anti-Catholicism.
[/quote]
Ah no. Sometimes what we want to discuss is floating around in our mind and it takes a discussion to clarify precisely the issue at hand. There is no need to chastise the OP while she herself is working it out. A bit of charity is in order from you.

[Annie12]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1333809548' post='2413951']
What's so easy for you to say, is so easy for me to disprove.

[url="http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Passover/History/Medieval/Blood_Libels.shtml"]http://www.myjewishl...od_Libels.shtml[/url]

[url="http://www.iiipublishing.com/religion/catholic/popes/pius_xi_franco.html"]http://www.iiipublis..._xi_franco.html[/url]

So who is in denial now?
[/quote]
No offense but I don't even have to look at these links because the mistakes of people within the church have nothing to say about the church its self (plus my internet is really slow and it would take a while for it to load ). Its actually interesting the church is held to such a high standard. People in every religion do bad things but the only one who really get "punished" for it is the catholic church. The truth is You obviously have bad feelings about the church and I would encourage you to go on some catholic websites to learn the truth about Catholics instead of what other people tell you. and I am not saying the Church hasn't had it's faults but any faults were of the people and not the church itself because God doesn't make mistakes.
I hope this helps. (unless you don't want help and just want to change my opinion which will not happen) In any case, God Bless!

[vee]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1333662070' post='2413456']
and how do we combat it?
[/quote]

with an iron maiden

[Sister Marie]

Cmotherofpirl, I probably should have quoted as I was posting so that it was clear what I was responding to. I certainly do not believe that we cannot judge actions as being sinful... but as you said, we cannot judge the person's culpability for them.

I thought it was clear (and after rereading I see that I wasn't! Sorry!) what I meant since we were not speaking about rape or theft or murder here but people who are ignorant of other religions and the things they say and think. The vehement insistence that someone was sinning by disagreeing with our religion was what I was responding to. And, no, I do not think you can call intellectual criticism of our belief system a sin. It [i]could[/i] be a sin of malice or pride... or it could just be that the person is confused... or that they experienced some very flawed member of our Church do something scandalous... or that they simply do not have the intelligence to tell truth from fiction and so promote beliefs that are incorrect because they were taught them by someone they trust.

Again, I am not saying that we cannot judge rape or theft as morally wrong - but neither of those were the topics in this thread. I apologize for not being clearer.

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1333810335' post='2413957']
No offense but I don't even have to look at these links because the mistakes of people within the church have nothing to say about the church its self (plus my internet is really slow and it would take a while for it to load ). Its actually interesting the church is held to such a high standard. People in every religion do bad things but the only one who really get "punished" for it is the catholic church.[/quote]
Right. Because no one has ever called out Islam for 9/11, or invaded Muslim countries over it, or anything like that.

[quote]The truth is You obviously have bad feelings about the church and I would encourage you to go on some catholic websites to learn the truth about Catholics instead of what other people tell you. and I am not saying the Church hasn't had it's faults but any faults were of the people and not the church itself because God doesn't make mistakes.[/quote]
No, I don't have bad feelings for the Catholic Church, I don't like how it inspires a victimization mentality in some people. It doesn't always happen, which is why I can't say that I have bad feelings for the Church itself, but it does happen.

As far as your matter is concerned now that you've actually provided more than a one-liner from Bob Beckel this does not appear to be you so I will let you get the guidance you need from your fellow Catholics. Peace.

Edited April 7, 2012 by r2Dtoo

[Archaeology cat]

Annie, my mother and sister can sometimes be anti-Catholic in that they dislike some Catholic beliefs and teachings (or their perceptions thereof). Really, I've learned that all I can do is pray, and charitably correct misunderstandings if/when they arise, and just live out my faith. They do not prevent me from living my faith, and aren't acting in hate, so in that respect aren't anti-Catholic, if I'm making sense. I find intellectual/academic discussions of my beliefs most helpful, and I also find that many simply have misunderstandings. If someone is hateful and doesn't want to listen, but just insists the Church is of Satan (like a discussion I had with someone before Lent), all I can do is walk away from the conversation and pray. That way I keep my temper in check, too. So to sum up: pray! Remember St Monica and her tireless praying and living out her faith. if the conversation can be kept charitable, speak up in charity. If it's better to address the issue later privately, which may be the case with a teacher, depending on the situation, then see about doing that. If talking to the person isn't going to go well, then don't. Preach the Gospel at all times and use words when necessary.

God bless