Anti-Catholicism

[Annie12]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1333719119' post='2413634']
Using your logic we also shouldn't talk about radical Islam inspiring 9/11 because that would clearly hurt the Muslims who want peace.

Hasan did not make any statement that his faith--if he has one--is better or more true than Catholicism, he merely pointed out past faults among the Catholic clergy that have been threats, or have been used to further advance threats to our society. Why is trying to learn from history anti-Catholic?
[/quote]

I actually think that we shouldn't rip into anyones faith. It's just wrong. radical [u]I[/u]slam however wants to physically injure people in a very destructive way.If it didn't aim to hurt anyone I would say it was fine. Catholicism is about faith, love and charity; very different from radicle islam. And Islam is a fine religion, its just that the [b]extremists[/b] want to blow everyone up. Also, the church isn't defined by the people like may other denominations. [u]The Church[/u] is the teachings and doctrines inspired by the Holy Spirit and passed down to the faithful from the apostle who Jesus christ taught Himself. People make mistakes. God doesn't so to insult or "critique" his church is very offensive to him and those who love him. You can learn about history all you want, but to take history and morph it into a politically charged argument against a given religion is just WRONG!! Didn't yo mama teach you manners!!!!!

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1333711830' post='2413606']
I find it interesting you as a non catholic make that distinction. All the Catholics here, agree that "intellectual criticisms" are indeed anti-catholic. The thing is that I don't think people know half the time that they are deeply hurting people by their comments or "intellectual criticisms". I think that weather or not they realize they are hurting people, the "intellectual criticism" is actually anti-catholic. For instance I never talk openly about how much one faith is wrong or could be better because I know it would hurt someone. I do talk openly about my faith, though. I suppose there is so much to talk about in Catholicism that I don't need to bash someone else' faith.
[/quote]

so then, is the intellectual criticism of protestants, gay issues, islam, liberals here, actually Anti-(all those things?) because most people here say other wise.

[cmotherofpirl]

I generally don't see "intellectual criticism" of the Church as anti-Catholic, since most of the people posting it usually just lack factual information as what we believe, its not personal. Saying your position on angels is wrong according to Church teaching is not the same as saying you are an idiot for believing in angels. Now that is personal. See the difference?

[Guest]

I disagree that islam is a fine religion. Just like I disagree mormonism is a fine religion. The people may be good hearted people but the religion itself is full of lies and half truths that only confuses people.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Guest

[4588686]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1333711830' post='2413606']
I find it interesting you as a non catholic make that distinction. All the Catholics here, agree that "intellectual criticisms" are indeed anti-catholic. The thing is that I don't think people know half the time that they are deeply hurting people by their comments or "intellectual criticisms". I think that weather or not they realize they are hurting people, the "intellectual criticism" is actually anti-catholic. For instance I never talk openly about how much one faith is wrong or could be better because I know it would hurt someone. I do talk openly about my faith, though. I suppose there is so much to talk about in Catholicism that I don't need to bash someone else' faith.
[/quote]

Well I was raised Catholic and intended to be a monk through High School and I would have made the same distinction then.

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1333725833' post='2413660']
I actually think that we shouldn't rip into anyones faith. It's just wrong. radical [u]I[/u]slam however wants to physically injure people in a very destructive way.If it didn't aim to hurt anyone I would say it was fine. Catholicism is about faith, love and charity; very different from radicle islam. And Islam is a fine religion, its just that the [b]extremists[/b] want to blow everyone up. Also, the church isn't defined by the people like may other denominations. [u]The Church[/u] is the teachings and doctrines inspired by the Holy Spirit and passed down to the faithful from the apostle who Jesus christ taught Himself. People make mistakes. God doesn't so to insult or "critique" his church is very offensive to him and those who love him. [b]You can learn about history all you want, but to take history and morph it into a politically charged argument against a given religion is just WRONG!! Didn't yo mama teach you manners[/b]!!!!!
[/quote]
You can jump up and down and try to cry that people are just morphing history for some sort of undetermined political agenda but you'd be wrong. Fact: Spanish dictators during WWII allied with Hitler and forced Catholic morals upon their population. Fact: Hitler's anti-Semitism was, in part, inspired by the old school blood libels first thought of by Catholic clergymen. Yes, German nationalism could not have risen without the Protestant Reformation, but the Catholic Church is far from blameless in the matter.

As for your insistence that the Catholic Church isn't people, any faith group can claim that. Protestants will say their faith is based on the Bible, Muslims will claim the Quran, you claim teachings supposedly handed down from Christ himself. It's all the same. Doesn't let your religion off the hook for past events.

[4588686]

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1333716988' post='2413626']
Hm, I might disagree a little, if "intellectual criticism" is used in the way it should be. There are events in the Church's history that should be criticized. Even if they hurt, they are true. Only the truth will help us address these changes (as many of them have!). For instance, when people bring up the sexual abuse crisis in a challenging but respectful way- not making sweeping generalizations or punitive remarks about all priests, but rather, asking because they believe what happened was a violation of those people's God-given dignity by those that should have been there to lead them closer to heaven- I think it's our duty to address those calmly and prayerfully. That's not anti-Catholicism. It's a criticism that hurts, but it's something that needs to be talked about.

Fr. Ron Rolheiser came to our parish last year and talked a little bit about this. Sometimes we're so sick of hearing about it that every comment feels more like a jab, but this has and continues to purify our Church. Hopefully this situation never happens again, but sadly, if that exterior criticism wasn't there, the disgusting behavior may have continued.

So, long rambling paragraph to say that a criticism (especially ones that are still respectful) isn't necessarily anti-Catholic. Even if it hurts, we shouldn't cry "discrimination." Now, when someone generalizes the whole Church as pedophiles, that's anti-Catholicism... which should still be addressed prayerfully and calmly.

Edit: sorry about the massive run-on sentences. Don't have time to fix them. Got to go!
[/quote]

I just don't take this claim seriously. That's probably because of certain posters here and Bill Donahue. There have been sever instances of anti-Catholicism in the world and there still are. But a substantive number of Catholics in America, often those most eager to trumpet the superiority of Catholicism, seem to cry foul at any criticism of the Church as an institution or it's teachings. The Church's behavior in the former Yugoslavia was appalling. Many of the more vocal posters here are quite eager to point to the Islamists movements as proof or evidence of the corrupting influence of Islam on the lives of its adherents. But when it is pointed out that the Catholic Church had disgusting relationships with, for example, the Ustashi fascists in Yugoslavia, suddenly that is 'anti-Catholic garbage.'

[Guest]

Hasan why aren't you catholic anymore ? Are you still christian ?

Edited April 6, 2012 by Guest

[4588686]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1333743526' post='2413735']
Hassan why aren't you catholic anymore ? Are you still christian ?
[/quote][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/86623-my-fall-from-grace/page__hl__%2Bfall+%2Bfrom+%2Bgrace__fromsearch__1"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/86623-my-fall-from-grace/page__hl__%2Bfall+%2Bfrom+%2Bgrace__fromsearch__1[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1333743127' post='2413732']
The Church's behavior in the former Yugoslavia was appalling. Many of the more vocal posters here are quite eager to point to the Islamists movements as proof or evidence of the corrupting influence of Islam on the lives of its adherents. But when it is pointed out that the Catholic Church had disgusting relationships with, for example, the Ustashi fascists in Yugoslavia, suddenly that is 'anti-Catholic garbage.'
[/quote]

If people in the Church violated Church teaching then they should be called out, but that is totally different from saying Church teaching is wrong OR saying people who believe are mindless sheep etc.

[Annie12]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1333738431' post='2413719']
so then, is the intellectual criticism of protestants, gay issues, islam, liberals here, actually Anti-(all those things?) because most people here say other wise.
[/quote]
Well, I find it interesting the only reasonable people here are catholic. I mean common! Do you really not understand what I am saying here! [b]IF YOU SAY SOMETHING OFFENSIVE ABOUT CATHOLICISM, THEN YOU ARE BEING ANTI-CATHOLIC. Also, I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT ANTI-CATHOLICISM AND ALL THE NON-CATHOLICS ARE TRYING TO SWAY THE CONVERSATION. [/b]And there is a difference in what you mean by intellectual criticism. When it is applied to a religious belief (weather it Catholic, protestant or Islam), then it is just wrong and offensive. I am just restating myself here so I will refer you to my previous posts! (P.S. gay issues is a political topic and therefore I think it is okay to have your own thoughts on the matter. I don't hate Gay people, I just don't like Gay activity and they have a God given vocation if you get my drift). [b]But any who, we are getting off topic, we are talking about anti-Catholicism.[/b] And also, stop being so relative. If your are rational, then you can rationalize anything. There are facts and weather or not you accept them they still exist.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1333773573' post='2413898']
Well, I find it interesting the only reasonable people here are catholic. I mean common! Do you really not understand what I am saying here! [b]IF YOU SAY SOMETHING OFFENSIVE ABOUT CATHOLICISM, THEN YOU ARE BEING ANTI-CATHOLIC. Also, I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT ANTI-CATHOLICISM AND ALL THE NON-CATHOLICS ARE TRYING TO SWAY THE CONVERSATION. [/b]And there is a difference in what you mean by intellectual criticism. When it is applied to a religious belief (weather it Catholic, protestant or Islam), then it is just wrong and offensive. I am just restating myself here so I will refer you to my previous posts! (P.S. gay issues is a political topic and therefore I think it is okay to have your own thoughts on the matter. I don't hate Gay people, I just don't like Gay activity and they have a God given vocation if you get my drift). [b]But any who, we are getting off topic, we are talking about anti-Catholicism.[/b] And also, stop being so relative. If your are rational, then you can rationalize anything. There are facts and weather or not you accept them they still exist.
[/quote]

Are you kidding me? seriously? "intellectual criticism is ok unless its about religion, then it is automatically OFFENSIVE ANTI RELIGION HATE SPEECH"??

and then you have the nerve to say [b]I [/b]am being "relative".

Your cognitive dissonance is frankly impressive.

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1333774773' post='2413903']Your cognitive dissonance is frankly impressive.[/quote]
What I found most impressive was when Annie first quoted Hassan, wrote a paragraph on his quote, and managed to avoid everything that he said. She's one smooth politician yo.

Edited April 7, 2012 by r2Dtoo

[Papist]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Intellectual criticism is stupid.[/font][/color]

[Sister Marie]

I agree with what Lisa said about criticism. It is GOOD that we are criticized. Intellectual criticism, whether it be about actions the Church has been a part of or of doctrines and teachings, is a way to purify, grow in holiness, and realize our sinfulness and need for God.

Right now in my archdiocese a trial is going on because of the sexual abuse of minors by clergy and because of the moving of those abusers from parish to parish. Are some of the people involved in this trial "anti-catholic"? Probably. Is the trial itself "anti-catholic"? No. It would be unjust for this trial not to happen. It wouldn't be happening to begin with if nothing wrong had been done by our hierarchy. I say this with a lot of love for the Church. The only way wounds are healed and sins forgiven is for them to be brought out into the light so that God can transform us.

We sometimes think we are above criticism and the truth is that we are not. We should allow it to purify us. In the light of eternity - Christ gained our eternal life by suffering and dying. Why should we not also suffer and die? In this case it is a death of pride and of status... but it is still a death. In that sense, I do not see anti-Catholicism as something to fight against. Yes, we should protect our rights. No, we shouldn't be trying to get everyone to respect us. Jesus wasn't respected when he was nailed to the cross.

The Church has always flourished where it is most difficult to practice the faith. When it becomes difficult to be Catholic is when we are usually the most faithful and when our holiness grows. It's good to work to make sure that we are treated justly, like when unjust laws are passed, but to put us above criticism is a waste of time better spent uniting ourselves to Jesus.