Growth And Development In Catholic Tradition Is Not Apostolic

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1334316686' post='2416923']
No. You don't understand. What he is saying is this,

God reveals infomation 1 to A, then A tells information 1 to B. In both situations, information 1 is Divine Revelation.
[/quote]


This is what you are trying to say.

If God reveal info1 to A and then A give info1 to B If B get this info1 perfectly then you will be correct in your analysis that Divine Revelation can be ‘handed-down’ from A to B.

But it won’t work that way. Let us change info1 to ‘God reveal himself’. Okay so it goes like this.

God reveal himself to A and then A give his testimony to B - -B will never understand A because A’s testimony is hidden in mystery to B. (and unless God reveal himself to B he will never understand the testimony of A).

[reyb]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1334322896' post='2416942']
Wow. When you edit you really edit, don't you?
Okay....
2Corinth12 is an interesting passage. The Corinthians had been criticizing Paul, and accusing him of not really being an Apostle: "I have become a fool in boasting, but you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you, for in nothing was I behind the most imminent Apostles, though I am nothing." (v11). This passage isn't about revelation in general; it is about Paul trying to prove his worth. He is trying to establish his authority, and points to his visions and his works to show that he is favored by God. It is a personal account, and I do not think it speaks for all of revelation. In other words, I don't see how it supports your claim that truth must be revealed on an individual basis and the term "Divine Revelation" refers to the person it was revealed to, and not the information itself.
[/quote]

Let us discuss it later. I will answer the other part of this post.

[Papist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334325492' post='2416963']
This is what you are trying to say.

If God reveal info1 to A and then A give info1 to B If B get this info1 perfectly then you will be correct in your analysis that Divine Revelation can be ‘handed-down’ from A to B.

But it won’t work that way. Let us change info1 to ‘God reveal himself’. Okay so it goes like this.

God reveal himself to A and then A give his testimony to B - -B will never understand A because A’s testimony is hidden in mystery to B. (and unless God reveal himself to B he will never understand the testimony of A).
[/quote]

How does God reveal Himself?

Also, is God not capable of....let's say via the Holy Spirit...of inspiring A to infallibly communicate to B what God has revealed?

[reyb]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1334322896' post='2416942']
"Revelation" is a noun. It refers specifically to the information which is being revealed. Divine Revelation, then, can be said, "Divine Information." I maintain that, no matter how you personally got the Information, if it originated in God then it is still Divine Information. If God came up with the idea, it is still His idea, no matter who reiterates it. If Abraham told Isaac about the existence of God, the existence of God is still Divine Information. I do not see how it can logically be otherwise. For it to be otherwise is to say that if I write a book, and you read it aloud to your kid, it isn't my book anymore. I must confess that doesn't make sense to me!

As for the post you deleted...it assumes the deterioration of the information. You have no reason to assume that.
[/quote]


This is precisely why Moses (writer of the book) will accuse the Jews (reader of his book) before God as it is written in John 5:45-6:1

[indent=1]45 "But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"[/indent]

Because the Jews though that whatever they learn from Moses’ book comes from Moses and therefore from God. Thus, I said ‘unless you see what Moses saw’ you will never understand his Book. And anything you learn from it did not come from Moses. It comes from you. Thus, it is written in John 10:34 ‘34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?

While in fact, these teachers do not write the book of Moses. They are just ‘readers’ but in this passage it is stated ‘your law’.

You are correct in saying if you write a book and another read it. It will remain you book. This idea will not apply in their testimony because none of them are the real owners of that book. It is the same as if God write a book and other spirits read it, from whom reader's knowledge come from? From God or from that other spirit?

Edited April 13, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1334326224' post='2416971']
How does God reveal Himself?

Also, is God not capable of....let's say via the Holy Spirit...of inspiring A to infallibly communicate to B what God has revealed?
[/quote]


How God reveal himself? God reveal himself thru Christ and there is no other way but thru Him.

This is why it is very important to listen to the writer of this book, not to add or subtract anything from it, follow their instruction carefully and wait for the Lord to come. Only then you will see it clearly.

Holy Spirit does not come before seeing Christ. You must see Him first and everything will follow as long as you are still here.

You should not claim having Holy Spirit by faith because faith has no power against the truth. By faith you can claim almost anything as long as you accepted them to be true. But truth will remain whether you claim it by faith or not. If you are false you will remain false. So, what is the sense of claiming anything? Trust in God and trust in his Christ is still the best without claiming anything.

Edited April 13, 2012 by reyb

[Papist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334329960' post='2416998']
How God reveal himself? God reveal himself thru Christ and there is no other way but thru Him.
[/quote]

And how did you come to know this to be true?

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334329960' post='2416998']
This is why it is very important to listen to the writer of this book, not to add or subtract anything from it, follow their instruction carefully and wait for the Lord to come. Only then you will see it clearly.
[/quote]

I would also add to this, to not cherry pick verses and pick only what you want to believe.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334329960' post='2416998']
Holy Spirit does not come before seeing Christ. You must see Him first and everything will follow as long as you are still here.
[/quote]

This makes no sense. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are God and has always existed.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334329960' post='2416998']
You should not claim having Holy Spirit by faith because faith has no power against the truth. By faith you can claim almost anything as long as you accepted them to be true. But truth will remain whether you claim it by faith or not. If you are false you will remain false. So, what is the sense of claiming anything? Trust in God and trust in his Christ is still the best without claiming anything.
[/quote]

Please answer my question,

[color=#282828]Is God not capable of inspiring A to infallibly communicate to B what God has revealed? [/color]

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333640916' post='2413302']
First, I do not convince you or anyone to become Protestant neither to remain in Roman Catholic Church nevertheless these things is up to you.

I am simply suggesting if you want to save time and energy consumed by many rituals, sacraments, prayers and other religious activities in Roman Catholic Church and in any Protestant Churches, it is much better to read the scriptures without favouring any commentaries or preachers or teachers or Magisterium, Synods, Councils, Elder and many other leaders since none of them can reveal the mystery of the scripture, do not involve yourself in any of their actives as a member but be part in their bible studies and consider all of them as your brothers, to listen and discuss the scriptures - all of them if you can like the bible, the holy Quran and the writing of Buddha and many others, do not judge who or what is wrong or right, and to seek nothing except the truth.

To cut it short, open yourself to the world religion even to atheism and consider all of them your brothers and then wait for the Lord to come because He will come. Oneness in mind as in groupings gives you nothing but hatred to one another. Let God himself separate you from the world and not by your own doing separate yourself from your brothers. This is the essence of my suggestion in my previous post.
[/quote]

Wow - have you ever read the Bible? You know that part that says, "Be hot or cold, but if you are lukewarm I will vomit you from my mouth..."

What you are saying, that's exactly what that passage in the Bible is warning us about. You are being lukewarm, and that's the kind of attitude that, according to the Bible, God very much dislikes.

Either be with the Catholic Church or against Her. But don't just sit on the fence.

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1334332476' post='2417023'] And how did you come to know this to be true? I would also add to this, to not cherry pick verses and pick only what you want to believe.

This makes no sense. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are God and has always existed.

Please answer my question, [color=#282828]Is God not capable of inspiring A to infallibly communicate to B what God has revealed? [/color] [/quote]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1334354247' post='2417353'] Wow - have you ever read the Bible? You know that part that says, "Be hot or cold, but if you are lukewarm I will vomit you from my mouth..." What you are saying, that's exactly what that passage in the Bible is warning us about. You are being lukewarm, and that's the kind of attitude that, according to the Bible, God very much dislikes. Either be with the Catholic Church or against Her. But don't just sit on the fence. [/quote]


Our issues should not be one man against his brother or one group against the other or even one religion against another. If you see it that way, you are already a loser.

Lukewarmness in the scripture is not about judgment in positioning oneself between two groups or not taking part in any group, which are all under the same ‘caretaker’. I am not a Catholic neither a Protestant and maybe in your eyes, I am a lukewarm Christian (because you want me to choose between them). Lukewarmness is not about what you previously posted. But rather, lukewarmness of a believer is about honoring God with his lips while his heart is too far from Him. (see Isa 29:13, Mat 15:8, Rev 3:16).

In my previous post I said Jesus comes first before the Holy Spirit and you can see it in John 16:5-8.

The doctrine of Holy Trinity is another ‘Growth and Development’ from the Tradition handed-down to Catholics and this doctrine is not apostolic.

Have you not realize? None of these witnesses are ‘Trinitarian’. Is Moses Trinitarian? Luke, Paul, Jonah….and many many many other witnesses, none of them is ‘Trinitarian’ although they know about this Holy Spirit (see it in Isa 63:11, Ps 51:11)

Everything we need in order to know Him was already given to us and even our fate is in our hands. Now to your question, is God not capable of inspiring a particular man to know the testimony of a true witness? Again, I will answer. Everything we need in order to know Him was already given to us and even our fate is in our hand. To be short, you only need to seek him and you will understand the testimony of these witnesses.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334325492' post='2416963']

This is what you are trying to say.

If God reveal info1 to A and then A give info1 to B If B get this info1 perfectly then you will be correct in your analysis that Divine Revelation can be ‘handed-down’ from A to B.

But it won’t work that way. Let us change info1 to ‘God reveal himself’. Okay so it goes like this.

God reveal himself to A and then A give his testimony to B - -B will never understand A because A’s testimony is hidden in mystery to B. (and unless God reveal himself to B he will never understand the testimony of A).
[/quote]

I see no reason to assume that B would be incapable of understanding. If it were so, Jesus' command to "Go out and teach all nations" would have been nonsensical; they would have been unable to teach anything that was revealed to them. They would have had nothing to teach!


[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334327646' post='2416981']
This is precisely why Moses (writer of the book) will accuse the Jews (reader of his book) before God as it is written in John 5:45-6:1

[indent=1]45 "But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"[/indent]

Because the Jews though that whatever they learn from Moses’ book comes from Moses and therefore from God. Thus, I said ‘unless you see what Moses saw’ you will never understand his Book. And anything you learn from it did not come from Moses. It comes from you. Thus, it is written in John 10:34 ‘34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?

While in fact, these teachers do not write the book of Moses. They are just ‘readers’ but in this passage it is stated ‘your law’.

[/quote]

I'm sorry, but you are very hard to understand.
If I am understanding you correctly, though--you are seeing this passage of John 5 as a rebuke to those who read the book of Moses and believe it to be true?--I think you may need to read the entire chapter again. Jesus is saying that Moses will rebuke the people for not reading the Scriptures and so ignoring the coming of Christ. In other words, if they don't believe Moses, they can't believe Christ, and of they believe Moses they would believe Christ. I see this as a direct contradiction to your statement that truth can't be passed down. Because Jesus is clearly saying they would know the truth of His coming through Moses.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334327646' post='2416981']
You are correct in saying if you write a book and another read it. It will remain you book. This idea will not apply in their testimony because none of them are the real owners of that book. It is the same as if God write a book and other spirits read it, from whom reader's knowledge come from? From God or from that other spirit?
[/quote]

You seem to be contradicting yourself. If Tally's Book is Tally's Book no matter who reads it and who hears it read, then God's Revelation is God's Revelation no matter who repeats it or hears it repeated.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Tally Marx

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334370239' post='2417504']

Everything we need in order to know Him was already given to us and even our fate is in our hands. Now to your question, is God not capable of inspiring a particular man to know the testimony of a true witness? Again, I will answer. Everything we need in order to know Him was already given to us and even our fate is in our hand. To be short, you only need to seek him and you will understand the testimony of these witnesses.
[/quote]

^This is the fallacy of Sola Scriptura. You, above everyone else, know what the Bible means because it was revealed to you, personally. But by that logic, everyone who trusts in God should agree with you. And they don't. So how do you know you have the true meaning, and not them?

[reyb]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1334377519' post='2417580']
^This is the fallacy of Sola Scriptura. You, above everyone else, know what the Bible means because it was revealed to you, personally. But by that logic, everyone who trusts in God should agree with you. And they don't. So how do you know you have the true meaning, and not them?
[/quote]


You really do not get it. Don’t you? When I said everything, I really mean ‘everything’. The universe and everything in it, our world where we lived, sun, stars, moon, seas, valleys, rivers, mountains, plants and animals, our families and friends, everyone who loves us and even those who hates us, our time, our life, our senses--- everything. He created all things and gives it to us. He even gives us the opportunity to see him.

Are my words too hard to understand? Do you really think these testimonies are more important than you? Witnesses write these books as a guide for anyone who wishes to come and eventually to see God. Why then it will become more important than you who seeks. It is only logical to say, the objective is more important than the means. Don’t you know that even without a book you can still find him if you will honestly seek him? Do you think a man knows God because of a book in the very beginning?

Ah yes, these scriptures are too important for teachers and preachers who make their living out of it in the expense of others.

Edited April 14, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1334377049' post='2417575']
I see no reason to assume that B would be incapable of understanding. If it were so, Jesus' command to "Go out and teach all nations" would have been nonsensical; they would have been unable to teach anything that was revealed to them. They would have had nothing to teach!




I'm sorry, but you are very hard to understand.
If I am understanding you correctly, though--you are seeing this passage of John 5 as a rebuke to those who read the book of Moses and believe it to be true?--I think you may need to read the entire chapter again. Jesus is saying that Moses will rebuke the people for not reading the Scriptures and so ignoring the coming of Christ. In other words, if they don't believe Moses, they can't believe Christ, and of they believe Moses they would believe Christ. I see this as a direct contradiction to your statement that truth can't be passed down. Because Jesus is clearly saying they would know the truth of His coming through Moses.



You seem to be contradicting yourself. If Tally's Book is Tally's Book no matter who reads it and who hears it read, then God's Revelation is God's Revelation no matter who repeats it or hears it repeated.
[/quote]


As I have said in my previous post, you are correct in saying if you write a book and another read it. It will remain your book. The reason is because whatever the reader ‘gets’ that is what you ‘mean’ in that book and nothing is lost in transmission. But if the reader did not 'get' what you 'mean', you will say 'I did not mean it in my book' or that is not my book he is holding. (because he is holding a distorted book and therefore not your book anymore).

Thus, I said. It is like - God write a book and other spirits read it - so whatever knowledge he got from that book did not come from God because, the spirits (with small s) did not 'get' what the Spirit of God (with capital S) 'mean'. Now, since to learn something which is not true is the same as ‘learning nothing at all’. It only follows that everything is lost in transmission.

Okay for example: God reveal himself to A and then A said ‘There is only one God’ to B. B will not get what A means by ‘One God’.

Proof is this:

[indent=1]It is written in James 2:19 you believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that — and shudder.[/indent]

In the above verse, it is very clear that even demons believe that there is one God.
My question is this: Is the devil telling the truth or not?

Edited April 14, 2012 by reyb

[Papist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334370239' post='2417504']
Our issues should not be one man against his brother or one group against the other or even one religion against another. If you see it that way, you are already a loser.

Lukewarmness in the scripture is not about judgment in positioning oneself between two groups or not taking part in any group, which are all under the same ‘caretaker’. I am not a Catholic neither a Protestant and maybe in your eyes, I am a lukewarm Christian (because you want me to choose between them). Lukewarmness is not about what you previously posted. But rather, lukewarmness of a believer is about honoring God with his lips while his heart is too far from Him. (see Isa 29:13, Mat 15:8, Rev 3:16).

In my previous post I said Jesus comes first before the Holy Spirit and you can see it in John 16:5-8.

The doctrine of Holy Trinity is another ‘Growth and Development’ from the Tradition handed-down to Catholics and this doctrine is not apostolic.

Have you not realize? None of these witnesses are ‘Trinitarian’. Is Moses Trinitarian? Luke, Paul, Jonah….and many many many other witnesses, none of them is ‘Trinitarian’ although they know about this Holy Spirit (see it in Isa 63:11, Ps 51:11)

Everything we need in order to know Him was already given to us and even our fate is in our hands. Now to your question, is God not capable of inspiring a particular man to know the testimony of a true witness? Again, I will answer. Everything we need in order to know Him was already given to us and even our fate is in our hand. To be short, you only need to seek him and you will understand the testimony of these witnesses.
[/quote]

You are making absolutely no sense.You say a lot, yet say nothing.

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1334407719' post='2417665']
You are making absolutely no sense.You say a lot, yet say nothing.
[/quote]


In what way you expect them (the whole world) to believe you without explaining it? Give you reasons my friend. Am I wrong in saying Divine Revelation cannot be ‘handed-on’ from one man to another? You bring billions of soul in front of the judgment seat of God without giving them the opportunity to know Him while they are still here. Am I wrong that you denied them to know the truth? My heart is really broken. I am crying almost daily when I found out the manipulations that you did. It is natural that the word of God is not clearly understood because it is hidden in mystery. But to lie and manipulate words in order to justify your intention in this very serious matter is a massacre to all people who run to you....

Edited April 14, 2012 by reyb

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1334399146' post='2417644']

As I have said in my previous post, you are correct in saying if you write a book and another read it. It will remain your book. The reason is because whatever the reader ‘gets’ that is what you ‘mean’ in that book and nothing is lost in transmission. But if the reader did not 'get' what you 'mean', you will say 'I did not mean it in my book' or that is not my book he is holding. (because he is holding a distorted book and therefore not your book anymore).

Thus, I said. It is like - God write a book and other spirits read it - so whatever knowledge he got from that book did not come from God because, the spirits (with small s) did not 'get' what the Spirit of God (with capital S) 'mean'. Now, since to learn something which is not true is the same as ‘learning nothing at all’. It only follows that everything is lost in transmission.

Okay for example: God reveal himself to A and then A said ‘There is only one God’ to B. B will not get what A means by ‘One God’.

Proof is this:

[indent=1]It is written in James 2:19 you believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that — and shudder.[/indent]

In the above verse, it is very clear that even demons believe that there is one God.
My question is this: Is the devil telling the truth?
[/quote]

Again, you assume that the person told cannot comprehend. You have no reason to assume this.
Your proof is off-topic. It doesn't prove anything.