Growth And Development In Catholic Tradition Is Not Apostolic

[reyb]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1333933367' post='2414518']
Why don't you read a flooping book?
[/quote]

Please do not give me an abstract painting and do not send your little brothers as pawns while you are hiding in your palaces. Inform the world of that ‘tradition’ you dearly loved and then I will stop.

[Winchester]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333934989' post='2414542']
Please do not give me an abstract painting and do not send your little brothers as pawns while you are hiding in your palaces. Inform the world of that ‘tradition’ you dearly loved and then I will stop.
[/quote]
[img]http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/8/1/imnotgetting128621062417661447.jpg[/img]

[arfink]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333934989' post='2414542']
Please do not give me an abstract painting and do not send your little brothers as pawns while you are hiding in your palaces. Inform the world of that ‘tradition’ you dearly loved and then I will stop.
[/quote]

If you wish to know what our tradition is then I would suggest you get reading. There is a good deal to go through if you wish to encompass the whole thing. Many Catholics don't know everything to know about Catholicism in a lifetime. You may read the following, and get some idea of our tradition:

-the early Church fathers
-the doctors of the Church, especially Saint Thomas Aquinas
-any number of encyclicals
-Canon Law (if you have a head for that kind of stuff)
-a breviary
-the CCC

I could go on and on. Tradition is difficult to succinctly compress, since the whole idea is that it's compiled by many many generations of faithful Christians as they learned about their own faith.

[reyb]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1333646556' post='2413345']
Reyb, does Christ not speak of the seed that grows up to be a tree? Does the seed look like the tree? No. Yet we know from DNA studies today that the seed contains all that the tree will be. I take it you reject the trinity since there has been great development of the doctrine which has its foundation in scripture, even in protestant circles. If you can't see development going on in the New Testament you are missing alot. Where was Peter told by Jesus to appoint deacons in Acts 8. Peter tells us what deacons are to do and yet later we find Stephen and Phillip doing more than Peter spoke of in Acts 8. Later the apostles start appointing local leaders, i.e. bishops, presbyters. Presbyters are even mentioned in scripture before their role is spoken of. And it is not obvious that the role specified for them in scripture is complete. Do the presbyters in your church only do what the bible says they should? I doubt it. In fact I doubt you have presbyters or bishops. Maybe not even deacons as most denominations don't have these offices. Funny.
[/quote]


Okay. The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is another ‘growth and development’ in your Church.

Now regarding seed and tree:

You are simply saying seed and tree is one and the same and although the seed grows and undergone changes - the truth is nothing changes or added because whatever in that tree is already in that seed. So, in a tree there are branches, and leaves, and fruits but in your eyes all these things are already in that seed. Thus, when somebody asked you, where are the branches? You will answer, it is in that seed. Where are the leaves? It is in that seed. Where are the fruits? It is in there within that seed. And when I insist, where are these things. You will answer, they are all within that seed. I cannot see it. Then you will answer. ‘Believe and you will see’.

It is obvious, you are not really listening or maybe you miss the message of Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 15:36-37 he said,
How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed , perhaps of wheat or of something else.

To make it simple, when a seed grows into a tree, the seed dies. Therefore, the tree is not a seed. Just like ourselves. I know you look at this thing differently. You will insist that you as a baby are the same person when you become a man. This statement is very illogical and not true.

When I was a baby, it is true that I was that baby. But this baby is no longer me because everything he has is not mine and everything I have is not his. That baby is just a memory of me but not me. That baby does not exist anymore because I am now a man. (Try to ask a scientist if your body and mind as a baby is the same body and mind you have now as a man- if you think I am wrong). Now, If there is one thing I have now which he has before (when I was a baby) is neither belong to us too. It belongs to God that is the spirit of God.

So please what is that ‘tradition’?

Edited April 9, 2012 by reyb

[Winchester]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333939404' post='2414581']
Okay. The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is another ‘growth and development’ in your Church.

Now regarding seed and tree:

You are simply saying seed and tree is one and the same and although the seed grows and undergone changes - the truth is nothing changes or added because whatever in that tree is already in that seed. So, in a tree there are branches, and leaves, and fruits but in your eyes all these things are already in that seed. Thus, when somebody asked you, where are the branches? You will answer, it is in that seed. Where are the leaves? It is in that seed. Where are the fruits? It is in there within that seed. And when I insist, where are these things. You will answer, they are all within that seed. I cannot see it. Then you will answer. ‘Believe and you will see’.

It is obvious, you are not really listening or maybe you miss the message of Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 15:36-37 he said,
How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed , perhaps of wheat or of something else.

To make it simple, when a seed grows into a tree, the seed dies. Therefore, the tree is not a seed. Just like ourselves. I know you look at this thing differently. You will insist that you as a baby are the same person when you become a man. This statement is very illogical and not true.

When I was a baby, it is true that I was that baby. But this baby is no longer me because everything he has is not mine and everything I have is not his. That baby is just a memory of me but not me. That baby does not exist anymore because I am now a man. (Try to ask a scientist if your body and mind as a baby is the same body and mind you have now as a man- if you think I am wrong). Now, If there is one thing I have now which he has before (when I was a baby) is neither belong to us too. It belongs to God that is the spirit of God.

So please what is that ‘tradition’?
[/quote]
This is unreadable.

[arfink]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333939404' post='2414581']
So please what is that ‘tradition’?
[/quote]

Would you believe what another Christian told you about any matter of faith if he wasn't a Catholic and didn't have a Bible in hand to point at? When you were a child, didn't your parents have to convince you to believe? Were you not trained in the things of scripture, the things of faith? Were you not, at some point in your life, ignorant of scripture?

If you answered yes to any of these questions, then I must ask this question: To what then besides tradition do you ascribe your belief? You seem to reject tradition solely on the basis of a lack of literal allowance for it in scripture, yet I am highly doubtful that your own faith does not have at least some foundation in a tradition, one which ultimately is not derived only from scripture but from a continuum of understanding passed down through generations of Christians.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1333940305' post='2414590']

If you answered yes to any of these questions, then I must ask this question: To what then besides tradition do you ascribe your belief? You seem to reject tradition solely on the basis of a lack of literal allowance for it in scripture, yet I am highly doubtful that your own faith does not have at least some foundation in a tradition, one which ultimately is not derived only from scripture but from a continuum of understanding passed down through generations of Christians.
[/quote]

If he believes in the Bible itself, then he believes in Tradition.
And of course Tradition has a "literal allowance" in Scripture! What else is 2 Thess. 2:14 (DRV) but that?

Edited April 9, 2012 by Tally Marx

[reyb]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1333945884' post='2414660']
If he believes in the Bible itself, then he believes in Tradition.
And of course Tradition has a "literal allowance" in Scripture! What else is 2 Thess. 2:14 (DRV) but that?
[/quote]


It is written in 2 Thess 2:14-15

[indent=1]He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.[/indent]

From the above verses, it is very clear something was given to you, and this something are ‘teachings’ in oral or written form which you called ‘tradition’. Now, according to your Dei Verbum this ‘tradition’ grew and developed. Therefore, this ‘growth and development’ does not come from the tradition given to you.

For example, I give you ‘x’ and then, this ‘x’ becomes ‘x + y’. Therefore, this ‘y’ did not come from me because I give you just ‘x’.

Thus, I said all these ‘growth and development’ or new found realities or truths or new teachings like Doctrine on Holy Trinity and Roman Catholic Mariology and others are not included in the ‘tradition’ given to you. Thus I said ‘Growth and Development in Catholic Tradition is not Apostolic’.

Edited April 9, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1333940038' post='2414587']
This is unreadable.
[/quote]

What or which part and I will make it clear for you. (to the best of my ability). Ah Ok It is my grammar. Sorry.

Edited April 9, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1333938725' post='2414575']
If you wish to know what our tradition is then I would suggest you get reading. There is a good deal to go through if you wish to encompass the whole thing. Many Catholics don't know everything to know about Catholicism in a lifetime. You may read the following, and get some idea of our tradition:

-the early Church fathers
-the doctors of the Church, especially Saint Thomas Aquinas
-any number of encyclicals
-Canon Law (if you have a head for that kind of stuff)
-a breviary
-the CCC

I could go on and on. Tradition is difficult to succinctly compress, since the whole idea is that it's compiled by many many generations of faithful Christians as they learned about their own faith.
[/quote]


I am not asking for all teachings on Roman Catholic Church. I am asking just the ‘tradition’ given to you (Roman Catholic Church) by the Apostles.

Edited April 9, 2012 by reyb

[Winchester]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333953387' post='2414694']
What or which part and I will make it clear for you. (to the best of my ability). Ah Ok It is my grammar. Sorry.
[/quote]
Yeah, but I think you speak, read, and write at least two languages.

[reyb]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1333974831' post='2414776']
Yeah, but I think you speak, read, and write at least two languages.
[/quote]

Well I am just trying and obviously my best is not enough. Thank you for reminding me.

[Winchester]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333976324' post='2414781']
Well I am just trying and obviously my best is not enough. Thank you for reminding me.
[/quote]
It wasn't so noble. I was irritated and I picked at you, but your view is much more useful than the truth.

My point is that picking on the grammar of someone who is (according to my memory) operating in at least his second learned language isn't a legitimate tactic.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333953140' post='2414691']



It is written in 2 Thess 2:14-15

[indent=1]He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.[/indent]

From the above verses, it is very clear something was given to you, and this something are ‘teachings’ in oral or written form which you called ‘tradition’. Now, according to your Dei Verbum this ‘tradition’ grew and developed. Therefore, this ‘growth and development’ does not come from the tradition given to you.

For example, I give you ‘x’ and then, this ‘x’ becomes ‘x + y’. Therefore, this ‘y’ did not come from me because I give you just ‘x’.

Thus, I said all these ‘growth and development’ or new found realities or truths or new teachings like Doctrine on Holy Trinity and Roman Catholic Mariology and others are not included in the ‘tradition’ given to you. Thus I said ‘Growth and Development in Catholic Tradition is not Apostolic’.
[/quote]

The teachings never changed, only our understanding of them. Our understanding of something does not affect the something being what it is. If I handed you a strand of my DNA, and every year you discovered a different gene in it, would that mean you no longer have what I originally gave you? Would that mean you have changed what I gave you? Not at all.

Or, to use your own example:
You give me x+y=z
If I realize that I can rearrange this problem to z-y=x, have I changed the problem? Or have I just learned how numbers work?

Edited April 9, 2012 by Tally Marx

[Papist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1333953684' post='2414696']
I am not asking for all teachings on Roman Catholic Church. I am asking just the ‘tradition’ given to you (Roman Catholic Church) by the Apostles.
[/quote]

Here's another try. If you still don't understand, I pray the Holy Spirit will help you. God bless you.


Sacred Tradition comes from Christ. It's the full, living gift of Christ to the Apostles, faithfully handed down through the centuries. It is through Tradition that the Holy Spirit makes the Jesus Christ present among us, offering us the very same saving Word and Sacraments that he gave to the Apostles. Christ did not hand the Apostles a bible and say "Go, make copies and tell everyone this is all they need."

Understanding Catholic Tradition is essential to understanding the Catholic Church and the Catholic Christian faith. Tradition is "handed down" The word "tradition" actually means handing down something to another person.

Scripture testifies to this meaning of Catholic Tradition as the normal mode of transmitting the Faith:

[color=#0000ff]"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

"For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you...." (1 Corinthians 11:23)

"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received...." (1 Corinthians 15:3)

"...I know whom I have believed [i.e., Jesus], and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us." (2 Timothy 1:11-14)

"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." (2 Timothy 2:1-2)

"...I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3)[/color]

This is the most basic meaning of Catholic Tradition: it is the true Faith itself, given to the Apostles by Christ and faithfully transmitted to each new generation. (Catechism, 77-78)

We often write Tradition, with a capital 'T', to mean Sacred Tradition. This Catholic Tradition is different from those traditions (small 't') that are merely customs, and which are not part of Divine Revelation.

The Vatican II Council noted the importance of seeing that Catholic Tradition is firmly rooted in [u]the Apostles[/u]: it is Christ's whole gift to them, and to us. The Council writes:

[color=#0000ff]In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion..., commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, and to impart to them heavenly gifts. (Dei Verbum, 7)[/color]

It is specifically this "commissioning of the Apostles" that is fulfilled in the handing on of Catholic Tradition. The Apostles dedicated themselves to this mission, and they appointed other faithful men to succeed them and carry on their work. That same passage of Dei Verbum continues:

[color=#0000ff]This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing. (Dei Verbum, 7)[/color]

Catholic Tradition stands [b][u]with[/u][/b] Scripture in forming the one single deposit of the Faith. For Catholics, Sacred Tradition is not in opposition to Scripture: they compliment and confirm one another.

Vatican II's Dei Verbum speaks of "a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture": "[b][u]both[/u][/b] of them... flow from the same divine wellspring."

[color=#0000ff]It says that "Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity." The Church, "led by the light of the Spirit of truth, ...may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known." (Dei Verbum, 9)[/color]

This statement reveals another key aspect of Catholic Tradition: it is linked to the active work of the Holy Spirit.

Pope Benedict XVI gave an awe0me catechesis on Catholic Tradition, which is very applicable of your misunderstanding, ([url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16ChrstChrch5.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/...ChrstChrch5.htm[/url]). He says that we miss the profound meaning of Catholic Tradition if we see it only as the handing on of a static Revelation. More than that, it is the active, continuous work of the Holy Spirit in our particular time: it makes real and tangible "the active presence of the Lord Jesus in his people, realized by the Holy Spirit".

Understanding that Catholic Tradition as the active presence of Christ through the work of the Spirit is precisely what accomplishes the "transmission of the goods of salvation" to us:

[color=#0000ff]Thanks to Tradition, guaranteed by the ministry of the apostles and their successors, the water of life that flowed from the side of Christ and his saving blood comes to the women and men of all times. In this way, Tradition is the permanent presence of the Savior who comes to meet, redeem and sanctify us in the Spirit through the ministry of his Church for the glory of the Father.[/color]

This reality of the divine action of the Holy Spirit within the Church is essential to understanding Catholic Tradition. It is what makes Sacred Tradition something far different than mere human traditions.

Through that same action of the Spirit, Catholic Tradition incorporates us into the Communion of the Saints. It ensures the connection "between the experience of the apostolic faith, lived in the original community of the disciples, and the present experience of Christ in his Church."

The Pope concludes with, [color=#0000ff]…we can therefore say that Tradition is not the transmission of things or words, a collection of dead things. Tradition is the living river that unites us to the origins, the living river in which the origins are always present, the great river that leads us to the port of eternity. In this living river, the word of the Lord...: "And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age", is fulfilled again (Matthew 28:20).[/color]

Through Catholic Tradition, the Holy Spirit works to bring the grace and truth of Christ into our own lives. It's real. And it's living right now in the Catholic Church!

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." (John 1:14)

Edited April 9, 2012 by Papist