Dave Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Due to Jesus' words about the narrow road vs. the wide road, I think it's safe to assume that more people end up in hell than in heaven. But as to what percent difference, I'm not about to venture a guess. Who knows? Only God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 What about in Revelation where John says that the number of those in white can not counted. That sounds like many to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 ... i brought that up does anybody read my posts? lol jk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted May 7, 2004 Author Share Posted May 7, 2004 I will add that I misspoke when i said "crowded." Wrong choice of words; even when we are united with our bodies in heaven, heaven is still fairly spacious I'd imagine. What I mean is, where are more souls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Speculation like this just drives me bonkers. We truly have NO WAY of knowing. There are no formulas in the bible, and no quotas. Personally I think it is a relief that this is to be known by God alone, because having concrete knowledge or even a ballpark figure would lead to either presumption, or despair of God's mercy. I believe Jesus was speaking out of warning and frustration (rather than giving a discourse on eternal statistics), warning us that the road is difficult in this world, that we must persevere to the very end, and that it grieves him that very few choose and love God -- this is few when this is considered in proportion to what he desires. Of course what kind of percentage this would be, God only knows. -_- I truly do love that quote from the apocalypse about the multitudes in heaven. It gives hope to the heart and tells Jansenism to stick it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 [quote name='amarkich' date='May 6 2004, 07:28 PM'] Katholikos, while your comment is certainly witty, it is not the teaching of the Church. The fact that EWTN speaks of this as some kind of possibility, the idea that Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are not places is foreign to the early Christians as well as the Fathers of the Church, the Doctors of the Church, and the Saints throughout the centuries. This is a modern(ist) concept which has infiltrated the Church in recent times but is by no means the teaching of the Church even though it is common among RCIA classes. In fact, my friend converted to Catholicism last year. My brother was her sponsor. We were at a Catholic church (supposedly at least; it is Diocesan), and the woman who was helping the Deacon teach the class said that the "afterlife" is like a football stadium. Those who are furthest from God in this life will be farthest from Him in the "afterlife", up in the upper deck, while those who are close to Him will be on the 50 yard-line because "a merciful God wouldn't condemn anyone to Hell". The Deacon even agreed with her, and also drew the "Tree of Salvation" which expressed our 'relationship' with God. In this relationship the roots and stump represent faith while the branches represent good works. He asked, "What do we need to go to Heaven?". He then proceeded to erase all but the stump a roots, the word "faith" being written below them. Just because this is commonly taught or believed by "Catholics", does not mean that it is true. They also, of course, said that Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are not places. I by no means compare EWTN to the typical Novus Ordo RCIA class, but I do recognize that they do hold some erroneous opinions, especially some of their statements concerning women's head coverings, which is a Divine Command (c.f., Saint Paul and Archbishop Fulton Sheen). God bless. *I forgot to mention: Limbo is surely also a place, not a state of being only. God bless. [/quote] This is an argument for "document dumping." Please read the link before commenting. [b]This is the teaching of the Church as articulated by our Holy Father, JPII.[/b] It is NOT the teaching of EWTN. What your friend was taught in the RCIA class is heresy and should have been reported to the bishop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 [quote name='XIX' date='May 6 2004, 11:24 PM'] I will add that I misspoke when i said "crowded." Wrong choice of words; even when we are united with our bodies in heaven, heaven is still fairly spacious I'd imagine. What I mean is, where are more souls? [/quote] "Where" is a word that refers to a place, a location. I hope everyone will read the teaching of the Church -- it's in that link I provided. Thanks. Ave Cor Mariae, Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 [quote name='Ellenita' date='May 6 2004, 07:48 PM'] [b]Likos[/b], how does that equate with a bodily ressurrection? Does the 'second coming' when there is the ressurrection of the dead mean that purgatory, hell and heaven will no longer exist? [/quote] Ellenita: CAUTION: I will give you the answer as I understand it, but I'm not a theologian. There are two Judgments: The "Particular Judgment" occurs immediately after an individual's death, when God judges the soul and irrevocably determines a person's lot for eternity. If we merit heaven, we will go either straight into that state of being, or we'll first experience the temporary suffering of Purgatory (from the Latin [i]purgare[/i], to purge). Purgatory will purge our souls from every last stain and attachment to sin, and prepare us to live in God's presence. Most of us will have to undergo Purgatory. If hell is our lot, our eternal suffering will begin immediately. The "General Judgment" is the universal judgement of the human race at the final resurrection of the dead. It will be a total judgement, revealing not only people's moral conduct but all of the accumulated blessings or injuries that resulted from each person's good or evil deeds. We will have "glorified bodies" at the final resurrection, when our body and soul will be reunited. St. Paul describes this in 1 Corinthians 42-44. Heaven and hell are eternal. But they are states of being and not physical locations. There will be no need for Purgatory, since the world as we know it will have ended. Purgatory, too, is a state of being, not a place. Souls won't be directed to "turn left after you leave Purgatory, and Heaven is straight ahead." I gave you the longer version, since you're a brand new Catholic. Thanks be to God! Ave Cor Mariae, Likos (Jay) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 [quote]I hope everyone will read the teaching of the church - it's in that link I provided.[/quote] Oooops....it was very late in the UK when I was posting last night..... .... It's a wonderfully clear explanation.... It's also very true to say we shouldn't get too hung up on the 'state of being' because actually a major problem is that our language is woefully inadequate in trying to describe it! ** Ellenita now takes herself off to stand in the corner in penance for missing the link last night, until Likos says she can come out....... :leave: ** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Likos, our posts crossed! Thanks for your post on the two judgements, it was really helpful, as was reading the Church teaching in the link you provided to answer the original question of the thread! I suppose my question was prompted by my recent facination of the very 'ordinariness' (in the broadest sense of that word) of Jesus' behaviour after the ressurrection when he appears to the disciples....I love that he asked for some fish to eat for example! I had missed much of that in my protestant days having focussed only on the extra ordinary event of the ressurrection itself. It's through praying the rosary that I'm coming to know Jesus as completely human [i]and[/i] divine. It's so wonderful that it links beautifully with the creed - 'I believe in the resurrection of the body...' I love this church! OK, I'll stop now before I take this thread way off topic!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 [quote name='Ellenita' date='May 7 2004, 04:40 AM'] Oooops....it was very late in the UK when I was posting last night..... .... It's a wonderfully clear explanation.... It's also very true to say we shouldn't get too hung up on the 'state of being' because actually a major problem is that our language is woefully inadequate in trying to describe it! ** Ellenita now takes herself off to stand in the corner in penance for missing the link last night, until Likos says she can come out....... Â :leave:Â **[/quote] Ellenita, Come out! Come out! Hopefully, nothing I wrote was a criticism of anyone. At least I didn't intend it that way. We are all learning together. I wish I knew more. That's what's so great about phatmass. Beginners and intermediates learn from the "graduate students." I think I'll be in the intermediate class forever. But, thankfully, the "graduate students" are here to correct me when I'm wrong. Ave Cor Mariae, Jay (Likos) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 [quote name='Ellenita' date='May 7 2004, 04:56 AM'] Likos, our posts crossed! [/quote] Ellenita: :heart: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Likos, thank you :cheer: Ellenita comes out of corner....but then immediately faints upon hearing that Likos is in intermediate class......how much knowledge is needed before becoming graduate student?! get well cards can be sent to......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 I based my reply on the words of Wife, Mother, and Mystic, [url="http://www.romancatholicism.org/digest/ad6-8.html"]Blessed Anna Maria Taigi.[/url] Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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