How Crowded Is Heaven/hell?

[XIX]

I figured this would be a good place for this question, since There could be a nice debate over it. Also, it comes in the form of a poll because we don't know for a fact what happens, we can only hope, trust, pray, and [i]preach.[/i]

Have at it, folks. I'll probably sit this discussion out.

Edited May 7, 2004 by XIX

[Theoketos]

God is so meriful that will let people choose hell.

God does not redeem people against thier will.

[Katholikos]

Purgatory, hell, and heaven are not places but states of being. And we'll be bodiless. Spirits do not occupy space. So "crowded" is not a concept that can be used with regard to the afterlife.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Heaven"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Heaven[/url]

JMJ Likos

[amarkich]

Our Lord and the Scriptures in general are pretty clear about the fewness of those who are saved, to say nothing of the writings of the Saints as well as various apparitions. "The path is narrow and straight which leads to Heaven." "Many are called and few will answer." "The way to Hell is wide and easy and many take it." I apologize for the very probably misquotes (I am still stuck in the NAB midset on some, if not many, verses). The Church has always taught that Heaven is very difficult to obtain; look at the many rules of the Church to guide us in this path. How many people meet the requirements for Heaven? First of all (or, at least the Athanasian Creed says this), one must be Catholic (c.f., "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."). This counts out about four-fifths of the world if not more (1 billion out of 6 billion leaves 83 percent of the world nonCatholic). As for this, how many follow the Precepts of the Church (attend Mass every week, go to Confession every year, etc, etc, etc). Very few of this great number are left. Of these who follow the Precepts of the Church, how many are free from mortal sin? fewer still. As for the small number who follow the Precepts of the Church and are free from mortal sin, how many of these can persevere in this life without falling into mortal sin so that they are free from mortal sin on their death beds. Of those who are free from mortal sin on their death beds, how many of these will have final perseverence? The number seems to be very, very small. For this reason, I have chosen the final option denoting the fewest souls who go to Heaven. Those who are in Heaven are surely closer to the number of those who are canonized and beatified than the number of Catholics who have lived on the earth. God bless.

[cmotherofpirl]

Jesus also said

"My yoke is easy and my burden light."


And I think the Catholic Catechism and several other documents had a few things to say about this that you left out.

[amarkich]

Katholikos, while your comment is certainly witty, it is not the teaching of the Church. The fact that EWTN speaks of this as some kind of possibility, the idea that Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are not places is foreign to the early Christians as well as the Fathers of the Church, the Doctors of the Church, and the Saints throughout the centuries. This is a modern(ist) concept which has infiltrated the Church in recent times but is by no means the teaching of the Church even though it is common among RCIA classes. In fact, my friend converted to Catholicism last year. My brother was her sponsor. We were at a Catholic church (supposedly at least; it is Diocesan), and the woman who was helping the Deacon teach the class said that the "afterlife" is like a football stadium. Those who are furthest from God in this life will be farthest from Him in the "afterlife", up in the upper deck, while those who are close to Him will be on the 50 yard-line because "a merciful God wouldn't condemn anyone to Hell". The Deacon even agreed with her, and also drew the "Tree of Salvation" which expressed our 'relationship' with God. In this relationship the roots and stump represent faith while the branches represent good works. He asked, "What do we need to go to Heaven?". He then proceeded to erase all but the stump a roots, the word "faith" being written below them. Just because this is commonly taught or believed by "Catholics", does not mean that it is true. They also, of course, said that Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are not places. I by no means compare EWTN to the typical Novus Ordo RCIA class, but I do recognize that they do hold some erroneous opinions, especially some of their statements concerning women's head coverings, which is a Divine Command (c.f., Saint Paul and Archbishop Fulton Sheen). God bless.

*I forgot to mention: Limbo is surely also a place, not a state of being only. God bless.

Edited May 7, 2004 by amarkich

[cmotherofpirl]

Please do not compare Katholicos's answer with an RCIA class.

EWTN is faithful to the Magisteriom of the Church.

If head covering were a divine command our heads would be covered, and it would be part of current canon law, which it is not.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 6 2004, 08:39 PM'] Please do not compare Katholicos's answer with an RCIA class.

EWTN is faithful to the Magisteriom of the Church.

If head covering were a divine command our heads would be covered, and it would be part of current canon law, which it is not. [/quote]
Me Love Cmom

[Ellenita]

[quote]Purgatory, hell and heaven are not places but states of being. And we'll be bodiless...[/quote]

[b]Likos[/b], how does that equate with a bodily ressurrection? Does the 'second coming' when there is the ressurrection of the dead mean that purgatory, hell and heaven will no longer exist?

This is not disputing what you say!


[b]Amarkich[/b], the notion that the fewest souls go to heaven seems very depressing and yet the Christian faith is full of joy and hope.....I look in awe at the saints who have been canonised and beatified, they are wonderful examples to us and yet I find it difficult to believe that I could live my life or count myself even a fraction as they did. Are you telling me there is [i]no hope [/i]of heaven for me....I might aswell give up now.....

Edited May 7, 2004 by Ellenita

[cmotherofpirl]

Yeah, I thought it was supposed to be the "Good news".
Sounds like the hell-fire and damnation revival stuff from when I was little.

Why bother?

[Livin_the_MASS]

There is a Hell, But Gods [b]Mercy[/b] is beyond human and angelic intellect.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Oh yeah I voted The majority, at least and I pray for more

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 6 2004, 08:05 PM'] Purgatory, hell, and heaven are not places but states of being. And we'll be bodiless. Spirits do not occupy space. So "crowded" is not a concept that can be used with regard to the afterlife.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Heaven"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Heaven[/url]

JMJ Likos [/quote]
Thanks Likos good stuff

[M.SIGGA]

all those paintings of the communion of saints in the sky look really crowded; and if you're in heaven it wouldn't matter anyway and I would hope it is crowded if it can be.

[Aloysius]

amarkich, are you suggesting that heaven and hell are PLACES, as in, one's up in the clouds and one's below the earth? like, physical places? because i disagree. them being "states of being" doesn't equate with that football stadium c a r p. If one is in hell they are not in some physical place with physical fire, they are in a STATE of ETERNAL seperation from God. If one is in Heaven they are in a STATE of Eternal perfect union with the Divine Trinity in Heaven. If one is in purgatory they are in a STATE of purification. they are not in physical places.

the resurrection of the body is when all our bodies will be risen and perfected. i'm not an expert on eschatology, but i know are bodies will be glorified and reunited with our souls. we will continue in the Beatific Vision. I'm not sure about the status of the earth, and where our glorified bodies will be. Jack Van Impe i guess got to my head a lil while back, i really shouldn't watch stuff like that :ph34r:
but i guess the earth will be purified, all imperfection taken away, and it will be a new heavens and a new earth and i guess all our glorified bodies will be in the new earth. Would i be correct in saying it's basically a full reality of "heaven on earth", in that all our glorified bodies united to our souls would reside on the new glorified earth in the fullness of the beatific vision?

oh, and as regards the original question, i know that there are at least more than 10,000 popular saints in heaven, and of course the 144,000 that represent that there are people from God's first chosen people, Israel, in heaven. there is also a great multitude that cannot be numbered (at least according the the Apocalpyse of St. John ) there are, therefore, lots of people in heaven.

but the sad reality is, lots of people i'm sure are also in hell, because of God's love and mercy He must beaver dam them for eternity.

So.. i donno, i'm tempted to say 50/50, i'd like to be optimistic and say 75% heaven 25% hell, and i know that what Jesus taught on this was in hyperbole to teach that we must persevere to the very end and always seek to do good.