Groo the Wanderer Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Incorrect. Natural law is what helps to guide the formation of the conscience. It allows to know right from wrong, even if we do not know God overtly. Our very being knows God in a primal way for lack of a better term. Will is required to act on this, not intellect. Intellect is required to expand on the natural law and apply it to our experiences in life. God does not have to as you say, actively intercede, because He has already written the natural law into our being. I would not say intercede would be applicable also because of the gift of free will. God interceding would be more like us exercising our free will and choosing, in violation of the natural law to not feed our children, and Him stepping in to cook up some bacon for them Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1333197374' post='2411092'] I believe we may be missing a conjuction of thought by mere inches. It's fine if you want designate a God as the puppet master or prime mover created an essence or right or wrong in our psyche or the 'spirit' of the world. That still doesn't 'make' us know these things are right or wong innately. Discerning right from wrong requires applying our intelligent self-awareness and application of our intellect (whether or not we agree a god gave us intellect). Whether by divine intervention in the foundation of creation or by reasonable observation of the world we live in, intellectual thought is required. Catholics usually do not require the constant active intercession of God to tell them what is right or wrong and wake up in the morning needing to pray to God for a sign of whether to cook breakfast for their kid, or cook their kid for breakfast. [/quote] I get what you're saying. Initially your post irked me but I figured I'd give you the benfit of the doubt (lucky you!). You have to understand though that a lot of people characteristically use the "we don't need god to tell us . . ." phrase to hint at their moral superiority almost like "I'm a good person based on my own righteous will and volition, you only behave morally because you believe there is a sky fairy who will punish you if you don't. See I act out of love and all good things, you act out of fear. I'm better than you. Sorry." But that's not what you were saying, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kia ora Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) [quote name='blacksheep' timestamp='1333032751' post='2410039'] Not theologically or morally, but as a sort of "lets look at this again and see what it really is" kind of benefit. [/quote]I guess it's good to have critics. But I think that sometimes, the best critics may be self-critics. Outsiders have prejudices that blind them to their own faults. No one's an impartial judge. Whereas an insider has first hand experience. I'd personally trust a Catholic to criticise their own religion over an atheist. If atheists did not self-organise, I think it'd be better. People, all people, seem to be meaner and dumber in groups. Which is probably not true, but it [i]sounds[/i] true. Hey, remember when being an atheist was radical and meant getting amesome outcast points? Yeah, I don't remember it either. But still. Why do we need atheist organisations, campaigns and public figures? I liked it when we were the voice crying out in the desert. Edited March 31, 2012 by Kia ora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 If god put the natural law of good and evil into everyone, can we assume he just forgot to give it to sociopaths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1333208668' post='2411148'] If god put the natural law of good and evil into everyone, can we assume he just forgot to give it to sociopaths? [/quote] that's something I always wondered about. I think you might be playing devil's advocate, but I've never gotten a clear answer. Something along the lines of an impoverished formation on conscience, but not much farther than that. But anti-social personality disorder is still a huge mystery in the psychological field as well. About 1-4% of the population is estimated to have it, but as far as etiology and such there seems to be a lot of shoulder shrugging (as with many abnormal psychological phenomena), and as far as treatments that's even less explored for obvious reasons. I still think it's a good question to ask. Some people could kill a child and genuinely have zero remorse . . . I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie12 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1333208668' post='2411148'] If god put the natural law of good and evil into everyone, can we assume he just forgot to give it to sociopaths? [/quote] I think the sociopaths that commit horrid deeds are possessed. I don't understand why it is taboo to say either because Jesus cast out demons from people in the bible. I believe that some evil people can come off has appearing to have a mental issue when it's a spiritual issue. For example, I don't think Hitler wasn't schizophrenic (like people say) I think he was possessed. How could anyone commit such things otherwise? Possession happens. Why else do we train priests to be exorcists? I think that we need to also consider the spiritual side of things. Also, I totally am not saying people with mental issues are possessed just that in this day in age, violent people are sometimes labeled as having mental issues when in reality they have spiritual issues. I hope I didn't offend anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Certainly demonic possession could be a viable and reasonable explanation for the behavior of people that may be classified as being mentally ill if you want. Some people are born with handicaps. Missing a limb, diminished intelligence, or no ability to empathize are handicaps. Recognizing it is good to live in an advanced cooperative society of humans, it is worthwhile to care for babies, sick, elderly, and handicapped people as fellow society members even if you conclude so from a God's decree or recognizing them as fellow members of a self aware species that can create beautiful music for a concert or a catholic mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1333208668' post='2411148'] If god put the natural law of good and evil into everyone, can we assume he just forgot to give it to sociopaths? [/quote] No. Try to see the whole picture. God gives every person an innate sense of the natural law. Instinctively we know the basics of whats right and wrong, but not perfectly. This is one of the effects of original sin. That is why the conscience has to be properly formed and developed as one grows. Neglecting the conscience or forming it incorrectly makes it harder for one to understand the natural law. On top of that, throw in free will. Each person is free to choose their actions and either follow their conscience or not, choose right or wrong. God won't force you to choose correctly, just as He will not force you to love Him. Has to be your choice. Sociopaths? meh. not a psychologist, but I suppose they either formed their conscience incorrectly, killed it, or simply choose to ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1333250594' post='2411365'] No. Try to see the whole picture. God gives every person an innate sense of the natural law. Instinctively we know the basics of whats right and wrong, but not perfectly. This is one of the effects of original sin. That is why the conscience has to be properly formed and developed as one grows. Neglecting the conscience or forming it incorrectly makes it harder for one to understand the natural law. On top of that, throw in free will. Each person is free to choose their actions and either follow their conscience or not, choose right or wrong. God won't force you to choose correctly, just as He will not force you to love Him. Has to be your choice. Sociopaths? meh. not a psychologist, but I suppose they either formed their conscience incorrectly, killed it, or simply choose to ignore it. [/quote] This seems a little like no true scotsman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1333208668' post='2411148'] If god put the natural law of good and evil into everyone, can we assume he just forgot to give it to sociopaths? [/quote] No. The implication here is that God is capable of mistakes, and if God could make mistakes He would not be God. God leaves humanity free to make our own decisions. Mental illness might mitigate or remove culpability of sin, but these extreme situations cannot act as a scale to weigh the whole. I won't get too involved in a debate on the existence of Natural Law, as there are sufficient writers and philosophers who have written on the subject. However, the debate can be pretty much be summarized as having three ultimate possibilities: 1. Natural Law does not exist. There is no moral rule of any kind and we humans, being sentient beings, can do whatever we want. Generally, this would also preclude any kind of Prime Mover and is based on subjective truth. 2. Natural Law is merely a sociological/biological set of patterns designed either by evolution or society as a structure by which humans can live in relative safety. Therefore, one would not commit a crime like murder because outside or genetic forces impel them not to. In this case some might also try to argue that a "clockwork god" might have given us natural law to protect us from ourselves while still remaining aloof and uninterested. 3. Natural Law is the moral rule for humanity. This must demand a Prime Mover who defines reality and truth and who is interested in humanity. Of course, the first option is monstrous. It would not allow for the concept of good or evil at all. The second option is really very similar to the first. Societal mores or some biological set of instincts are flimsy rules by which to structure one's life, and they could be broken as easily as if they were not even there. The third option is based on objective truth established by an intelligent Creator. As far as I am concerned it is the preferable choice. Edited April 1, 2012 by centurion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 i work in an office filled with fundamentalist protestants, evangelicals, bible-thumping baptists, and non-denoms. most of the time, i'm having to protect my Faith from being bashed. many of these people treat others with disdain. in other words, there is a lack of Christian behavior from these Christians... but take Keri, of my co-workers who is an atheist: she is the most kindest person in the office. i have had the most challenging and inspiring conversations with her on Faith, God, the Church, social issues at work, yet I could not have those same conversations with fellow Christians. i truly believe with all my heart that God exists. I truly believe He is Creator and Lord over all His Creation. From the time we are born to the age of reason, we share an intimacy with God that borders on the mystical. It is when we come to reason where our relationship with God becomes our responsibility. It is when we hit the age of reason, where we begin the life-long battle with temptations, with sin and evil... where we have to decide which path we will walk--- the one that leads us to God or away from Him. Do we choose life or death? God clearly asks us to "Choose Life!" But not all are willing to walk down that path... In this, I believe taht all humans were created for the sole reason of loving God. I believe at teh time we are created, God impresses this need of him in all our hearts and souls. This is the great meaning of Life... We cannot put labels on people and believe them to be absent of this beautiful impression from God. Atheists, regardless of their non-belief, are still loved by God and created for the sole purpose of loving Him. They are still children of God, nothing erases taht. They are capable of great things, because God who is Love does not cease to be active in their lives. my co-worker keri is a prime example of this. Her kindness is needed in that hectic environment. She may have stopped believing in God, but He never stopped believing in her.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I think the real question is, Is the world necessary for the atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 athiests r groce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333551198' post='2412862'] I think the real question is, Is the world necessary for the atheist? [/quote]Of course. That's the only place they exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie12 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1333270064' post='2411425'] i work in an office filled with fundamentalist protestants, evangelicals, bible-thumping baptists, and non-denoms. most of the time, i'm having to protect my Faith from being bashed. many of these people treat others with disdain. in other words, there is a lack of Christian behavior from these Christians... but take Keri, of my co-workers who is an atheist: she is the most kindest person in the office. i have had the most challenging and inspiring conversations with her on Faith, God, the Church, social issues at work, yet I could not have those same conversations with fellow Christians. i truly believe with all my heart that God exists. I truly believe He is Creator and Lord over all His Creation. From the time we are born to the age of reason, we share an intimacy with God that borders on the mystical. It is when we come to reason where our relationship with God becomes our responsibility. It is when we hit the age of reason, where we begin the life-long battle with temptations, with sin and evil... where we have to decide which path we will walk--- the one that leads us to God or away from Him. Do we choose life or death? God clearly asks us to "Choose Life!" But not all are willing to walk down that path... In this, I believe taht all humans were created for the sole reason of loving God. I believe at teh time we are created, God impresses this need of him in all our hearts and souls. This is the great meaning of Life... We cannot put labels on people and believe them to be absent of this beautiful impression from God. Atheists, regardless of their non-belief, are still loved by God and created for the sole purpose of loving Him. They are still children of God, nothing erases taht. They are capable of great things, because God who is Love does not cease to be active in their lives. my co-worker keri is a prime example of this. Her kindness is needed in that hectic environment. She may have stopped believing in God, but He never stopped believing in her.... [/quote] I was just thinking about that today. And, I realized how much God works even in the lives of those who don't acknowledge his existence. It is so beautiful when you really think about it! God is so infinitely loving!!! well let's just say God is amesome!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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