homeschoolmom Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Very, very bad idea. I can understand what the youth leaders were trying to do-- they wanted to shake up their safe-feeling American teens to help them understand what some Christian teens face. I mean, I get that. Sometimes we need to be shaken out of our comfort zone. However, this was soooo wrong on so, so many counts. I have friends who now run a Christian camp in Croatia. As part of their missionary training they (adults) took part in something similar. But they *knew* it was role-playing and they were adults. And it *still* scared the daylights out of my friend. I cannot imagine if something like this happened to my kids. We would certainly never be setting foot in that church again, and I would join in a lawsuit. That was beyond irresponsible. ETA: Okay.... just watched the clip... Horrible judgement on the part of those in charge. An off-duty police officer? Um, what are you thinking??? What really irks me is the comment from the pastor that people in other places who suffer these kinds of things don't have any warning either. Um... well... that's probably true, however most of them realize the *potential* danger. This happened in the US! There's not context for teens to recognize what the heck is going on. I'm also not a fan of mock terrorist drills in schools either. I don't think the people responsible should go to jail. I do think they shouldn't be working with teens, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filius_angelorum Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 You would sue members of your church? That would be despicable. If you sue the church, it would merely be penalizing the people who donate from their hard-earned money. If you sue the individuals, how would money be a consolation. Too much litigation goes on between Christians in the public forum these days. Cessent iurgia, cessent lites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filius_angelorum Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 You would sue members of your church? That would be despicable. If you sue the church, it would merely be penalizing the people who donate from their hard-earned money. If you sue the individuals, how would money be a consolation. Too much litigation goes on between Christians in the public forum these days. Cessent iurgia, cessent lites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Do you think they would voluntarily cover any counseling costs? I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='filius_angelorum' timestamp='1333113083' post='2410605'] You would sue members of your church? That would be despicable. If you sue the church, it would merely be penalizing the people who donate from their hard-earned money. If you sue the individuals, how would money be a consolation. Too much litigation goes on between Christians in the public forum these days. Cessent iurgia, cessent lites. [/quote] You do realize that this is a[b] crime[/b]. And while the perpetrators knew that they had no intentions of harming anyone involved, the teens did not. It was a real kidnapping. And, as others have pointed out, this could have gone down completely differently with someone getting hurt. I'm not sure that in the end a simple, "hehe, it was all pretend!" is a satisfactory ending. Nothing like building mistrust in those you are supposed to be able to trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The only situation where a "haha it was all pretend!" situation like this is ever acceptable is if if they were all young adults and preparing to go be missionaries in a place where Christianity was illegal. I'm shocked that the one parent who knew about this (for apparent medical reasons for his/her kid) didn't oppose it. One year for Resident Assistant training my college was updating all sorts of emergency preparedness protocols, and they wanted to make sure all of us would be comfortable enough to know what would happen if the SWAT team had to come into an area. They had one of their guys "hold us hostage" with a water pistol, and in the middle of his giant (somewhat goofy) monologue the SWAT team burst in, in full gear, huge guns, shouting at us to get on the floor, everything. Then we all lined up (on our knees, hands behind our head) and were patted down to make sure no one was a "plant." All of us college kids KNEW beforehand exactly what was going to happen, they had explained EVERYTHING step-by-step, but it was still scary for most of us. I can't imagine how terrified those kids must have been. [quote name='filius_angelorum' timestamp='1333113059' post='2410604'] You would sue members of your church? That would be despicable. If you sue the church, it would merely be penalizing the people who donate from their hard-earned money. If you sue the individuals, how would money be a consolation. Too much litigation goes on between Christians in the public forum these days. Cessent iurgia, cessent lites. [/quote] It's attitudes like that that helped get us Catholics into the giant mess we're in today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1333037389' post='2410197'] No! I saw it on the news and they said they were looking into the details and I never heard ANYTHING about it again... [/quote] "Looking into details" double bonus points if "alcohol was suspected to be involved". I once had to talk my Resident Assistant I lived with in undergrad, out of his insane plan to take one of the bulldozers they had on campus for construction, on a joy ride. Edit: As for suing, I'd sue. Obviously following the advice of the Bible to try to settle your problem with the elders and brothers isn't going to work, when those are the people who are doing this to your kids. Plus a number of crimes were committed here, and kidnapping charges in most jursidictions differ between adults and children and at least one child according to the phrasing of the article was 18 (and therefore an adult). Weapons were brandished, including an assault weapon. People will be scarred for life, and some may turn their backs on Christ at a young age now, because of what was done to them in His name. Edited March 30, 2012 by BG45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filius_angelorum Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I would feel differently if there was any evidence of alcohol abuse, exploitation, etc. As for what attitudes led to this mess, it is when the leaders of the Church stopped looking at themselves as judges and policemen of their clergy and started thinking of themselves as their clergy's nanny or union rep. But again, what would a lawsuit accomplish? If there were truly an issue of counseling costs, I might feel differently, but these teenagers need to grow tougher skins. Many children have fought in wars by the time they were this age, and get no counseling, including not a few saints. Still, if there were some medical or psychological problems resulting from this, the people involved or the Church would need to help out. Since this is likely a church with a democratic structure, it would be a matter of arguing one's case in front of the members of the church, who, in my experience, would give as much help as they could. If they don't have it, they can't give it. Seems to me our own Church could learn a little from the separated brethren about transparency and public process, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1333032587' post='2410035'] They are lucky that one of the teens didn't have a weapon and actually fight back. [/quote] Bingo. If you ever point a weapon at someone, always be prepared to fire......and be fired upon. You NEVER joke with a firearm or even something that LOOKS like a firearm. This situation could have had 3-5 dead adults because a hero rose to the occasion. And then the liberal antigun movement would use this incident as proof that nearly all guns should be banned. This church should be happy with the lawsuits that come considering it won't be lawsuits accompanied by dead bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 there are not enough desks in the world to bang my head against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='filius_angelorum' timestamp='1333119788' post='2410648'] I would feel differently if there was any evidence of alcohol abuse, exploitation, etc.[/quote] Why? (And I would say that this *was* exploitation, but probably not the kind you mean here...) <snip> [quote]But again, what would a lawsuit accomplish? [/quote] For one thing it would make other people who work with youth think twice before pulling a similar stunt. [quote]If there were truly an issue of counseling costs, I might feel differently, but these teenagers need to grow tougher skins. Many children have fought in wars by the time they were this age, and get no counseling, including not a few saints. Still, if there were some medical or psychological problems resulting from this, the people involved or the Church would need to help out. Since this is likely a church with a democratic structure, it would be a matter of arguing one's case in front of the members of the church, who, in my experience, would give as much help as they could. If they don't have it, they can't give it. [/quote] Grow tougher skins?? Really? Unreal. And do you really think parents are going to seek help from the same people who caused this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='filius_angelorum' timestamp='1333119788' post='2410648'] I would feel differently if there was any evidence of alcohol abuse, exploitation, etc. As for what attitudes led to this mess, it is when the leaders of the Church stopped looking at themselves as judges and policemen of their clergy and started thinking of themselves as their clergy's nanny or union rep. But again, what would a lawsuit accomplish? If there were truly an issue of counseling costs, I might feel differently, but these teenagers need to grow tougher skins. Many children have fought in wars by the time they were this age, and get no counseling, including not a few saints. Still, if there were some medical or psychological problems resulting from this, the people involved or the Church would need to help out. Since this is likely a church with a democratic structure, it would be a matter of arguing one's case in front of the members of the church, who, in my experience, would give as much help as they could. If they don't have it, they can't give it. Seems to me our own Church could learn a little from the separated brethren about transparency and public process, though. [/quote] You do not "man up" by being kidnapped. That is completely abursd. I really, really recommend thinking through all of the implications of what you want to say before you say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1333032587' post='2410035'] They are lucky that one of the teens didn't have a weapon and actually fight back. [/quote] all i can think of is FuturePriest trying or maybe succeeding in beating them up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1333124926' post='2410686'] If you ever point a weapon at someone, always be prepared to fire......and be fired upon. You NEVER joke with a firearm or even something that LOOKS like a firearm. [/quote] Amen. More than enough people learn this lesson the hard way every year when they're dumb enough to black out the caps of toy guns and point them at cops and random citizens alike. [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1333125611' post='2410689'] there are not enough desks in the world to bang my head against. [/quote] I do not have the ability to prop this for as many desks as it needs. And on a serious note, HSM's post 41 sums up everything I thought and then some in response to filius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlySunshine Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='filius_angelorum' timestamp='1333119788' post='2410648'] I would feel differently if there was any evidence of alcohol abuse, exploitation, etc. As for what attitudes led to this mess, it is when the leaders of the Church stopped looking at themselves as judges and policemen of their clergy and started thinking of themselves as their clergy's nanny or union rep. But again, what would a lawsuit accomplish? If there were truly an issue of counseling costs, I might feel differently, but these teenagers need to grow tougher skins. Many children have fought in wars by the time they were this age, and get no counseling, including not a few saints. Still, if there were some medical or psychological problems resulting from this, the people involved or the Church would need to help out. Since this is likely a church with a democratic structure, it would be a matter of arguing one's case in front of the members of the church, who, in my experience, would give as much help as they could. If they don't have it, they can't give it. Seems to me our own Church could learn a little from the separated brethren about transparency and public process, though. [/quote] What they did was wrong -- no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Kids do not need to grow tougher skins by being abducted under false pretenses. We have enough crime going on in the world without adding to it. I'm flabbergasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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