Orthodox Nuns

[BarbTherese]

From what could be seen of it, an amazing and beautiful clothing ceremony. I liked the simplicity of their habit especially as they went about tasks. Loved the music.

[maximillion]

Just ordered the CD....again many thanks.
About the scapular - we were given it at First Profession, not at Clothing.
The Celebrant said "Receive the Yoke of the Lord".
We replied "His burden is light and a path to my feet."
This is after Matthew 11.30.
What the exact monastic origins are escapes me. Each morning we kissed the hem as we dressed, saying "I am clothed in the yoke of the Lord".

Extra note. A yoke is a shaped wooded headpiece which links two animals, often oxen, when they are engaged in ploughing or other work in the field. I always had an image of myself as yoked to Him in the field of His work...........

In addition, at Final Profession we had a new scapular, with the addition of a piece of fine linen which had been added to the underside and ran its length. Our novices sewed this in secret with a biblical or other quote, in red cross stitch. It was meant to link us to our specific devotion, since we did not take a devotional name. Mine was based on Luke 10.38, the Martha and Mary story.

Edited March 27, 2012 by maximillion

[beatitude]

Marigold, I didn't know you lived in England. Me too! And I also love Walsingham. I'm going there for Easter. Where do you live?

[marigold]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1332854448' post='2409108']
Marigold, I didn't know you lived in England. Me too! And I also love Walsingham. I'm going there for Easter. Where do you live?
[/quote]

A couple of people have said that. Maybe I don't write in a sufficiently Brit voice.

I grew up 10 minutes walk from Notting Hill Carmel, and now I live in East London with the friends I nannied for. You?

[Carmelshrimp]

[quote name='marigold' timestamp='1332857134' post='2409134']
A couple of people have said that. Maybe I don't write in a sufficiently Brit voice.

I grew up 10 minutes walk from Notting Hill Carmel, and now I live in East London with the friends I nannied for. You?
[/quote]
Actually I always thought you sounded as though you were in England, but the references to Swedish relatives made me think I was wrong. Just got used to you being here and you'll soon be leaving! When I say I hope so I hope you'll take that as "hope all goes well with the visa" and not "hope we get you out of the country"

[marigold]

[quote name='Carmelshrimp' timestamp='1332858542' post='2409139']
Actually I always thought you sounded as though you were in England, but the references to Swedish relatives made me think I was wrong. Just got used to you being here and you'll soon be leaving! When I say I hope so I hope you'll take that as "hope all goes well with the visa" and not "hope we get you out of the country"
[/quote]

Hehehe, I'll take it in the spirit it was intended! Thank you, I hope so too And I grew up half here and half in Sweden, so you weren't far off...

[AnneLine]

Marigold,

Can you explain to us a little more about what the different veils/hoods/headdresses mean?

I believe you said on the 'entering the monastery the Orthodox way' thread that the high hat-like veil is only worn in the chapel or for solemn ceremonies (that would make it akin to the choir mantle/cappa/cowl that some monastic and mendicant communities use). Is this understanding correct?

I believe it is also ritual to do a tonsure (clipping of at least some hair) at the time of entrance as a novice - or is it at vows?

Is it required or custom that the head be covered after that point? And is the veil removed during work, etc. at all, or must the sisters remain covered?

Can you give us a little better idea of what the day-to-day life of an Orthodox monastic would be?

I have read (and found very helpful as a lay person, incidently!) the book 'In The Spirit of Happiness' by the Monks of New Skete (in USA). Lots of very interesting, helpful insights into living a more spiritual life. Are you familiar with it, and does it do a good job of explaining the Orthodox vision of monasticism, or can you suggest some others?

Any other insights for us?

In my opinion, the sharing that you and Antigonos and Juchu have shared with us are what true ecumenism is - what can we share together? What can we do to understand each other's way of growing closer to God? In other words, while understanding that there are differences, what can we learn from each other?

I will also echo what was said a few comments ago - while I hope way opens for you to enter your Monastery soon, I cannot but believe that this is part of God's gift to our community here on phatmass to learn from and with you as we watch what God is doing with you, even as we have watching FaithCecilia, Nunsense, etc. God's ways aren't our ways, but they are always wonderful.

Edited March 27, 2012 by AnneLine

[the171]

I'm really intrested in the Orthodox faith. Especially y'all's liturgy. It is really deep.

[marigold]

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1332876544' post='2409289']
I'm really intrested in the Orthodox faith. Especially y'all's liturgy. It is really deep.
[/quote]

Funny to see you write about deep liturgy next to that particular pic of you! But yes, it is. Get thee to a Liturgy sometime.

[marigold]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]I like a thoughtful post! [/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Ok, so the starting point is that all Orthodox nuns wear pretty much the same thing – [/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]White undertunic (for underwear)[/color][/font]
[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Black tunic[/color][/font]
[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Belt[/color][/font]
[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Veil[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Everyone from novice up wears these items. The cap and [i]outer[/i] veil are given at the tonsure to rassophore, which is the first ‘committed’ stage and roughly corresponds to first vows (considered to be a lifelong commitment/in anticipation of that, but can still leave with bishop’s blessing). This is what you’ve been seeing, in all its beautiful regional variations. And yes, you’re right, it’s worn just in church. With the exception of the Romanian style, where tonsured nuns wear the cap 24/7, tilted forward under their veils. Who knows why? [/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000][img]http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/burning_string/mgabriella.jpg[/img][/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Some styles have a very high hat with the veil sewn on, to make it one item. [/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000][img]http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/burning_string/dthumb.jpg[/img][/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Others have a soft cap and separate veil. This style looks like the traditional RC get-up, and probably they have a shared origin.[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000][img]http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/burning_string/makrinabefore.jpg[/img][/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]When the cap and veil are given at tonsure, the bishop says, receive the helmet of salvation. That’s the symbolic meaning. But it also just looks pretty dignified and amesome! (Only half-joking. The communities in countries under the Ottoman yoke were made to stop wearing a high hat and just wear the outer veil. This has lingered in places like Greece and Turkey. I guess it looked too dignified and queenly for the authorities who were trying to promote a more submissive femininity, a la Islam.)[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Rassophores wear a wide-sleeved robe in church – like a hoodless cowl. That’s where they get the name from: rasso-phore means robe-bearer. [/color][/font][font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]The next rank up, equivalent to solemnly professed, wears a mantle on top of this robe (see last pic above). So there are garments that will be familiar to RC onlookers.[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]A small snippet of hair is cut on all 4 ‘sides’ of the head, cross-wise, at tonsure. After that, it’s never cut.[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]They (almost wrote we??) generally cover their heads from when they enter the monastery. I will be wearing a black triangle scarf, which believe you me is super flattering. You wouldn’t take it off outside of, I think, the hall where your cell is (i.e. in private), although I have seen mothers tuck their veils into the collar of their habits for work where it would be in the way.[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000](That’s another thing. While black is standard, it’s often not practical. My nuns have work habits in grey cotton and denim. I’ve even seen flowery ones! White veils are often worn during summer for the same reason. But not for formal church things – again, mine do wear the white veils when they come in for services during the day, but for the solemn services like Vespers they change into their ‘proper’ gear )[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]The lives of Orthodox monastics are so varied, since each community is a unique family, but as a general idea: they would get up early, usually before dawn, and pray alone and in church for several hours. Then a period of work – which runs the gamut of what RC religious also are involved in, only you divide it up into nuns, sisters, monks, friars, etc. – then a meal, then some prayer and rest, then more work, dinner, and finally the evening services.[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]My nuns run a farm and also do a bit of publishing and card-making. I know of communities where the monastics pray and work alone in huts in the desert most of the day, with just Liturgy and meals together. And I know of communities where they live in rooms above a city church, attending to a parish and teaching and preaching. It’s very very varied, and that I believe is a strength.[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]I don’t know the book you mentioned. My community has had some contact with the New Skete communities though, and they are generally good although they have imported some strange ideas from post-V2 Catholicism (they converted en masse I think). The nuns are bare-headed (comes across as disrespectful and disobedient) they use their surnames (more serious, since it negates the whole thing about monastics being entirely dead to the world, including their former family names), things like that. But I believe they are good and sincere people.[/color][/font][font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif] [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]My favourite Orthodox ‘nun book’ is [i]L[/i]e[i]tters to a Beginner b[/i]y Abbess Thaisia. It’s a series of letters to a young woman entering a monastery, written in the late 19[sup]th[/sup] century by a wonderful, holy abbess. It’s somewhat of an ‘inside view’ – would it make a lot of sense to someone outside the Church, I don’t know – although as spiritual advice it pulls no punches and wakes me up every time I read it. But Orthodox monasticism is like the Orthodox Church, it’s a vision of heaven, a seamless garment. So you will more likely find books on one aspect of monastic life, e.g. inner prayer, architecture, or one monastery, e.g. Valaam, or one monastic, e.g. Elder Paisios. The only way you can see the whole vision is to take part in the life of the Church, and visit monasteries yourself.[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000]Thanks for your kind words. I think our sharing is important too – there is so much you learn about a faith’s way of thinking, by making friends with people, that you could never understand otherwise. What can we learn from each other? I think the most amazing thing I am learning by having friends in other faiths and none is that humans truly are ‘homo adorans’. THE primal urge is worship, it goes deeper than food and sex and companionship, you can see that because even when we have all those other needs taken care of we are still unfulfilled. But when we worship, when we give the right glory to God (right glory: ortho-doxia), we are our true selves, even to the point of not needing the other things, as we see in the lives of certain saints. We can’t help it. If we don’t know God, we will worship other things. And it’s so interesting to me how even in the most un-Christian, iconoclastic religions, like Islam and certain strands of Protestantism, the urge to make things beautiful and give glory can’t be suppressed. Islam prohibits religious images, so the elaborate and beautiful script on the walls in mosques takes the place of icons. Protestants, and yes even some kinds of Catholic, seem determined to wipe out every beautiful thing in their worship, as though, if only we can get rid of all this ‘stuff’ we will finally be able to see God. It seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of worship which is our deepest need and what we were created for. We all want union, we all want to solve this mess of fragmentation that we’re in, but it’ll only happen when we recognise what humans really are and need, and therefore what true worship is.[/color][/font]

[size=4][font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000][font=Calibri]That was a bit rambly. Hope it makes sense It was fun to answer![/font][/color][/font][/size]

[size=4][font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000][font=Calibri]Edit: here's a helpful pic of the stages in clothes. A bit small.[/font][/color][/font][/size]

[size=4][font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000][font=Calibri][img]http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/burning_string/nuns_stages-1.jpg[/img][/font][/color][/font][/size]

Edited March 27, 2012 by marigold

[AnneLine]

[color=#0000ff]Thank you, Marigold. I am glad I was able to provide you with a thoughtful post... in response to so many of yours. [/color]

[color=#0000ff]After reviewing what you had written, I went back and looked at Clareni's original video (beautiful, thank you!). Is the white garment you refer to what they are wearing just before donning the robe... now I can see something white under it, so that is my guess.[/color]

[font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#0000ff]Your comment[/color][color=#000000], "When the cap and veil are given at tonsure, the bishop says, receive the helmet of salvation. That’s the symbolic meaning...." [/color][color=#0000ff]intrigued me, because those words (or very similar ones) are [/color][/font][color=#0000ff][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif]also what is/was said in many Western communities when the headdress was given and as it is put on each day. Perhaps, again, common origin....[/font][/color]

[color=#0000ff][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif]Your next comment, [/font][/color]

[font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif]Rassophores wear a wide-sleeved robe in church – like a hoodless cowl. That’s where they get the name from: rasso-phore means robe-bearer. The next rank up, equivalent to solemnly professed, wears a mantle on top of this robe (see last pic above). So there are garments that will be familiar to RC onlookers.[/font]

[color=#0000ff]Did indeed make sense. It also is interesting to me that it is very similar to the robes of many Benedictine communities... which would make sense because they would have been among the first in the Western church, so probably would have been most similar to robes worn in the Eastern church. Rather like all Romance languages being similar - but very different from! - Latin[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000]A small snippet of hair is cut on all 4 ‘sides’ of the head, cross-wise, at tonsure. After that, it’s never cut.[/color][/font][/color]

[color=#0000ff]Now that is interesting. I knew it was true of the monks, but did not know it was true of the nuns. I would think it would be hard to care for under the heavy black veil... but it is part of the lifestyle undoubtedly, and one of those things 'given' to God.[/color][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000]They (almost wrote we??) generally cover their heads from when they enter the monastery. I will be wearing a black triangle scarf, which believe you me is super flattering. You wouldn’t take it off outside of, I think, the hall where your cell is (i.e. in private), although I have seen mothers tuck their veils into the collar of their habits for work where it would be in the way.[/color][/font]

[color="#0000ff"]Again, this is interesting, because one of the things that has come up over and over again in many of the threads about postulant outfits is how truly unattractive many are.... and perhaps are intended to be! ... in order to foster humility. I tend to think that there is no reason that anyone needs to be made to look ugly, but that's my own personal belief. Simple, neat, dedicated, practical. Your 'beginner habits' (not sure what those who have just entered and are not yet novices are called?) seem to fit the bill.[/color]

[color="#0000ff"]The carmelite Nuns have had the custom from the time of St. Teresa of tucking the veil inside the scapular so it won't get in the way during work. Sounds, again, like either a common custom OR simply down right practical and a learned behavior! [/color]

[color="#000000"]That’s another thing. While black is standard, it’s often not practical. My nuns have work habits in grey cotton and denim....[/color]

[color="#0000ff"]Many communities in the west also have work habits or 'overalls' of some sort... and often the custom is to change into regular habits for Vespers. Again, common custom or pure practicality. Nuns and monks tend to be pretty practical from what I have experienced....[/color]

[color="#0000ff"] Will continue in a separate post as this is getting LONG![/color]

[AnneLine]

[color=#0000cd](Continuing... part 2)[/color]

[color=#0000cd]Marigold wrote:[/color]

[font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000]The lives of Orthodox monastics are so varied, since each community is a unique family, but as a general idea: they would get up early, usually before dawn, and pray alone and in church for several hours. Then a period of work – which runs the gamut of what RC religious also are involved in, only you divide it up into nuns, sisters, monks, friars, etc. – then a meal, then some prayer and rest, then more work, dinner, and finally the evening services.[/color][/font]

[color=#0000cd]I think this is true of some communities in the West as well, in particular some of the semi-monastic ones that also have an external apostolate (the Visitandines for example, and some of the Benedictine communities). But I think you just see it part of one seamless garment of being 'dedicated' to God... and other than being called to a house and an Abbess/Abbot, I don't think you differentiate between commnities from what you have said. Does one ever (or routinely) get transferred? Or is it more like Benedictine stability - the monk/nun is called to one house and to be led by that abbot/abbess, and to that superior you promise stability (staying here in in the monastery/cell) and 'conversion of manners' (which includes poverty, chastity, obedience and 'letting go of the world' ) (I'm not benedictine in spirituality, so somebody let me know if I have misstated.....)? There is something to be said for that stance...[/color]

[color=#0000cd][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000]My nuns run a farm and also do a bit of publishing and card-making. I know of communities where the monastics pray and work alone in huts in the desert most of the day, with just Liturgy and meals together. And I know of communities where they live in rooms above a city church, attending to a parish and teaching and preaching. It’s very very varied, and that I believe is a strength.[/color][/font]

I agree that there is strength in that variation.... and also a help in discernment. I would think that, again as in the West, the communities that are clearer about who they are and what they do are more likely to have strong candidates. It would be hard to know whether to commit oneself to a community if you didn't know who and what they were..... as far as the apostolates, again, it makes sense that one would be drawn to a community with more/less eremetical style and more/less active apostolate according to what God wanted. [/color]

[color=#0000cd][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000]I don’t know the book you mentioned. My community has had some contact with the New Skete communities though, and they are generally good although they have imported some strange ideas from post-V2 Catholicism (they converted en masse I think). The nuns are bare-headed (comes across as disrespectful and disobedient) they use their surnames (more serious, since it negates the whole thing about monastics being entirely dead to the world, including their former family names), things like that. But I believe they are good and sincere people.[/color][/font][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif] [/font]

I don't know much about the nuns at New Skete (and all I know of the Monks is what is described in the book) but they kind of indicated that they were considered to have some less than monastic-ness because of their dog training rather than a more typical monastic enterprise. I don't know anything about what the nuns wore (and I can see why that would be a problem in the Orthodox world... tends to be one in the RC world in many circles too! Interesting about the family names thing (in the Carmelites, for example, same concerns....)... but I also think they are very sincere. Here's a link to the book - it includes a 'look inside' option for anyone who is interested. It's interesting to me to note that so many lay people found this helpful... I know I learned a lot and got much more appreciation for the value of monasticism as simply 'being' rather than 'doing' from them. I also found them to be very sincere and good. My custom is always to be clear who I am, and to take what is helpful for me or someone else, and leave the rest behind. Others may disagree, which is fine. [/color]

[color=#0000cd]Here's the link:[/color]

[color=#0000cd][url="http://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Happiness-Monks-New-Skete/dp/product-description/0316606944"]http://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Happiness-Monks-New-Skete/dp/product-description/0316606944[/url][/color]

[color=#0000cd][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000]My favourite Orthodox ‘nun book’ is [i]L[/i]e[i]tters to a Beginner b[/i]y Abbess Thaisia...[/color][/font][/color]

[color=#0000cd][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000][color=#0000cd]I will keep that and your comments in mind. I had a number of friends who were Orthodox during high school, and learned a lot from them. I also have many Byzantine Catholic friends (who prefer to be called Orthodox, but I'm not going to muddy the waters here with THAT issue!). I've attended Divine Liturgy many times with them, and have sung it in English, so I appreciate the beauty of your services. I do find the experience a little overwelming however, and I know it affects my ADD (attention deficit disorder) issues - I find it difficult to pray in the Liturgy, although I can understand why many love it. Those of you who have never prayed with the Eastern Churches have truly missed something unique and special.[/color][/color][/font][/color]

[color=#0000cd][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000][color=#0000cd]I am going to stop for now (my husband wants his dinner!!!!) but will try to respond some later to the Ecumenical paragraph.[/color][/color][/font][/color]

[color=#0000cd][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000][color=#0000cd]Will be curious to see what the rest of you think about this discussion![/color][/color][/font][/color]

[color=#0000cd][font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000][color=#0000cd]Blessings, all, and holding all of you in loving prayer.[/color][/color][/font][/color]

[Clareni]

[quote name='marigold' timestamp='1332887936' post='2409369'][font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#000000] A small snippet of hair is cut on all 4 ‘sides’ of the head, cross-wise, at tonsure. After that, it’s never cut.[/color][/font][/quote]

This means I got the order of images wrong in the video. I assumed they cut more hair. If it is just 4 snips, it must be done before they put on the black over garment.

Sorry about that Marigold. I thought I knew a lot about the Orthodox until I read your posts and realized how little I know about the monastic communities which have always been so vital to Orthodox culture.

God grant you many years.

[Lisa]

Question: for times when the community prays in common, is there a common text or prayers between Orthodox monasteries? For instance, Roman Catholic religious use the Liturgy of the Hours as the backbone of their day.

[marigold]

[quote name='Clareni' timestamp='1332897284' post='2409445']
This means I got the order of images wrong in the video. I assumed they cut more hair. If it is just 4 snips, it must be done before they put on the black over garment.

Sorry about that Marigold. I thought I knew a lot about the Orthodox until I read your posts and realized how little I know about the monastic communities which have always been so vital to Orthodox culture.

God grant you many years.
[/quote]

Thanks! And don't worry about the order. I didn't notice and thought the video was lovely. I think a lot of Roman Catholics can be intimidated when they come into contact with another enormous Christian faith that they had no idea about, that is 'many cultures, one faith' just like theirs, and similar in a lot of ways but with an almost entirely different mindset. Sometimes we haven't been very welcoming to you, just as you haven't always welcomed us. But we're very friendly when you get to know us, as I hope to God comes across on VS!

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1332934330' post='2409594']
Question: for times when the community prays in common, is there a common text or prayers between Orthodox monasteries? For instance, Roman Catholic religious use the Liturgy of the Hours as the backbone of their day.
[/quote]

Yep, the services are pretty standard across the Orthodox world. And we have Matins, 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th hours, Vespers and Compline the same as you do. If you're interested I could outline what one of the services looks like.

Edited March 28, 2012 by marigold