Trayvon Martin

[4588686]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1332711748' post='2408237']
The adult had cause to believe the kid was armed. [/QUOTE]

No, he did not. He believed, apparently because the teenager was black and wearing a hoodie, that he might be armed, but he had no legitimate 'cause' to believe he was armed.

[QUOTE] That was why he confronted the kid in the first place. [/QUOTE]

Assuming that he did actually have 'cause' to believe that the teenager was armed, which he didn't, you still have an individual with no law enforcement training chasing down and confronting an armed teenager which is in itself immensely stupid since nobody was in imminent danger (although plenty of people would be in the ensuing shoot out) and he was specifically told by the actual authorities not to follow him, much less confront him.

[QUOTE]That's why he defended himself. [/QUOTE]

That's why he defended himself from his own unsubstantiated assumption that the unarmed teenager was in fact armed?

[QUOTE] He doesn't have to see the weapon in order to justify defending himself against it.
[/quote]


There was no weapon. He doesn't have to see the weapon, which doesn't exist, in order to defend himself from the threat of the weapon, which exists only in his own mind. Ok.

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1332712255' post='2408250']
That's the whole point of his actions--he thought the kid was on drugs and on his way to hurt someone and/or rob a house. And I believe he said told the 911 lady that he had something in his front pockets, which turned out to be the Skittles and iced tea can.
[/quote]

Hm. I wonder if that's why he was told not to confront the kid.

[Guest]

If I'm Zimmerman and a decent good spirited guy who isn't looking for trouble or isn't looking to profile I pull upbeside Martin roll my window down and ask him what he's up to ? Or mabey I flash my brights at him to get his attention. I don't go into stealth mode and try to be all sneaky and go batman style on Trayvon. Trayvon knew he was being followed. Zimmerman said Trayvon was looking at him weird or remarks like that. Why not just roll your window down and say hey buddy I'm neighborhood watch how are ya ? What are you up to ? I mean WE all know Martin is such a THUG and would of started a fight right then and there and stole Zimmermans gun and pry shot him. But hey mabey it was worth a try to do things that way instead of the way Zimmerman did. Or how about just wait for police.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Guest

[kujo]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1332712334' post='2408251']


No, he did not. He believed, apparently because the teenager was black and wearing a hoodie, that he might be armed, but he had no legitimate 'cause' to believe he was armed.



Assuming that he did actually have 'cause' to believe that the teenager was armed, which he didn't, you still have an individual with no law enforcement training chasing down and confronting an armed teenager which is in itself immensely stupid since nobody was in imminent danger (although plenty of people would be in the ensuing shoot out) and he was specifically told by the actual authorities not to follow him, much less confront him.



That's why he defended himself from his own unsubstantiated assumption that the unarmed teenager was in fact armed?




There was no weapon. He doesn't have to see the weapon, which doesn't exist, in order to defend himself from the threat of the weapon, which exists only in his own mind. Ok.



Hm. I wonder if that's why he was told not to confront the kid.
[/quote]

Pursuing him is not a crime, particularly since his explanation for that is that he believed his neighbors' safety was in jeopardy and decided to act before the cops got there. If you felt someone was about to kill another person, would you sit by and wait for the cops to arrive while watching the person get killed?

Go re-read my posts, Hasan. I've already gone in depth in addressing these same points.

[Jesus_lol]

the whole point of concealed carry in the states(not that this is directly involved) is non aggression, and doing everything possible to avoid escalating a situation for this precise reason.

if you have a gun on you, you do NOT get yourself into fist fights, because of the hugely escalated risk of either having your gun become visible/taken away, or you being forced to use it in self defense. Any responsible gun owner/carrier knows not to go looking for reasons to draw.

[4588686]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1332712580' post='2408258']
Pursuing him is not a crime, particularly since his explanation for that is that he believed his neighbors' safety was in jeopardy and decided to act before the cops got there. If you felt someone was about to kill another person, would you sit by and wait for the cops to arrive while watching the person get killed? [/QUOTE]

No. But I better make sure that I have good reason. Because if I gun down an innocent person because I fervently believe that Armenians are inherently violent and therefore any Armenian looking man poses an imminent danger to those around him, then I am in trouble.


He had no basis for his belief that the kid was a thief (which is what had been plaguing the neighborhood, rather than random murders) much less a belief that that potential thief represented an imminent danger to anyone. Stupidity isn't a crime. But what the stupidity causes you to do may well be.

[QUOTE] Go re-read my posts, Hasan. I've already gone in depth in addressing these same points.
[/quote]

And yet the same odd attempts at rationalization continue to pop up.

[kujo]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1332712608' post='2408259']
the whole point of concealed carry in the states(not that this is directly involved) is non aggression, and doing everything possible to avoid escalating a situation for this precise reason.

if you have a gun on you, you do NOT get yourself into fist fights, because of the hugely escalated risk of either having your gun become visible/taken away, or you being forced to use it in self defense. Any responsible gun owner/carrier knows not to go looking for reasons to draw.
[/quote]

Agreed.

But where's the law that he broke? That's the problem here. There's no specific statue or law that you can put your finger on and say "Here! This is what he did wrong." That stupid SYG law is vague and seems to cover all of this.

[4588686]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1332712912' post='2408267']
Agreed.

But where's the law that he broke? That's the problem here. There's no specific statue or law that you can put your finger on and say "Here! This is what he did wrong." That stupid SYG law is vague and seems to cover all of this.
[/quote]

Not according to his lawyer or the bill's author. I'm happy to read whatever sources you have but from what I can see it seems that only people who are proponents of gun control are pushing this as something that may be covered under SYG. It seems like most people are saying that the very act of perusing him and initiating the confrontation makes it inapplicable. Not that I really know.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Hasan

[Guest]

Like I said flash your lights. Roll down your window. Say hey pal I'm neighborhood watch how are ya ? Do you live around here ? Be a nice guy and good spirited. Either that or wait for police. But no instead he put Martin on the defense. With Martin having no clue who he was or what his motives were.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Guest

[4588686]

It's all a mess


http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-stand-ground-laws-scrutiny-florida-shooting/story?id=15988474#.T2-X99mt0sQ

[Guest]

Yep as the article says Zimmerman is on very thin ice and I hope he falls right through and he can sit in prison for a long time and think about about how evil it is to murder unarmed 17 year olds. Fake cop.

[Guest]

And why isn't he speaking out ? If he's so innocent ? No one is holding him back from giving a statement. To bad it didn't just "blow over" huh Zimmerman ? Watchen cops to much on tv. Ruining a 17 year olds future and breaking his familys heart. You thought it would "blow over". Wow.

[4588686]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332714553' post='2408287']
And why isn't he speaking out ? If he's so innocent ? No one is holding him back from giving a statement. To bad it didn't just "blow over" huh Zimmerman ? Watchen cops to much on tv. Ruining a 17 year olds future and breaking his familys heart. You thought it would "blow over". Wow.
[/quote]

I guess because we don't like in the UK and refraining from testifying against oneself is kind of a Constitutionally protected right.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1332717831' post='2408323']
I guess because we don't like in the UK and refraining from testifying against oneself is kind of a Constitutionally protected right.
[/quote]
"live"?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1332701653' post='2408081']
The only person mentioning gun control of any kind in this thread is you (and possibly that r2dt00 guy). /i wouldnt put it past DB to have that opinion, but he hasnt mentioned it.

seriously, I'd be happy to debate on the side of removing gun control all day, but there is no need to try and shoehorn it into places.
[/quote]

Is that so? Where did I once mention gun control in any of my posts? NEVER ONCE [mod]Profanity and personal attack. 7 day suspension. -dUSt[/mod]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1332704401' post='2408112']
...assuming "what he sowed" is proven, in a court of law--and not on CNN or Fox News--by a group of legal professionals--not race-baiters like Al Sharpton or morons on a message board-- to have been clearly, demonstrably, criminally wrong...

...also assuming his version of the events is proven to have been false, which it has yet to be...
[/quote]

Or the New Black Panther Party.

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332712574' post='2408257']
If I'm Zimmerman and a decent good spirited guy who isn't looking for trouble or isn't looking to profile I pull upbeside Martin roll my window down and ask him what he's up to ? Or mabey I flash my brights at him to get his attention. I don't go into stealth mode and try to be all sneaky and go batman style on Trayvon. Trayvon knew he was being followed. Zimmerman said Trayvon was looking at him weird or remarks like that. Why not just roll your window down and say hey buddy I'm neighborhood watch how are ya ? What are you up to ? I mean WE all know Martin is such a THUG and would of started a fight right then and there and stole Zimmermans gun and pry shot him. But hey mabey it was worth a try to do things that way instead of the way Zimmerman did. Or how about just wait for police.[/quote] Nearly everything you said here is an assumption. You don't know nearly all of what you said. First you don't know how the confrontation went down. Second is if you believe that someone is armed, the last thing that you want to do is expose yourself. Going stealth is the most intelligent thing that you can do if you're trying to catch someone intent on doing harm. If someone is armed and burglar, saying "hey I'm neighborhood watch" is going to get yourself shot. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and additionally don't have any street smarts.

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332713256' post='2408272']
Like I said flash your lights. Roll down your window. Say hey pal I'm neighborhood watch how are ya ? Do you live around here ? Be a nice guy and good spirited. Either that or wait for police. But no instead he put Martin on the defense. With Martin having no clue who he was or what his motives were.
[/quote] And get yourself poo by someone who is intent on robbing you.

Edited March 26, 2012 by dUSt
Profanity and personal attack

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332718374' post='2408328']
Is that so? Where did I once mention gun control in any of my posts? NEVER ONCE so why don't you shut the f#%k up, when you clearly don't know what you're talking about ok?

[/quote]

how about the post i was responding to?

and tone it the heck down, its not like i just kicked your grandmother in the face.