Byzantine Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 For that matter, will evil cease to exist as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Human souls, by definition, are immortal. They cannot cease to exist once they are brought into existence. Evil will always exist. Evil is a lack of God. If you die lacking God (ie, in mortal sin) you will lack Him for as long as you exist (because we know, through Divine Revelation, that no one can leave hell)...which is forever, because you are a human soul. That's the short answer... A Church Scholar may answer better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Apotheoun would tell you, if I'm not mistaken, that the souls of the damned will be annihilated at the eschaton. However for Latin-rite Catholics, typically our theology leads us to conclude that the soul cannot be destroyed, so the souls even of the damned will live forever. I'm not well educated enough on the topic to offer an opinion of my own. Edited March 19, 2012 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 From what I have been reading lately souls in hell will be destroyed and not exist anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332202388' post='2404206'] From what I have been reading lately souls in hell will be destroyed and not exist anymore. [/quote] What have you been reading? It's a topic on which I might familiarize myself more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Hell would be worth it if the suffering was finite. [quote]41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the [b]eternal [/b]fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, (Matthew (RSV) 25) 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for [b]ever and ever[/b]. (Revelation (RSV) 20:7-10)[/quote] For those unfamiliar with the Summa Theologica, the format is as follows. A question is posed, some objections are brought up, and then the replies to those objections. It's basically a structured way to think through a problem. [quote] [size=5][b] Summa Theologica[/b] [b] Question 99. God's mercy and justice towards the damned[/b] [b] Article 2. Whether by God's mercy all punishment of the damned, both men and demons, comes to an end?[/b][/size] [size=4][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b]Objection 1.[/b] It would seem that by God's mercy all punishment of the damned, both men and demons, comes to an end. For it is written (Wisdom 11:24): "Thou hast mercy upon all, O Lord, because Thou canst do all things." But among all things the demons also are included, since they are God's creatures. Therefore also their punishment will come to an end.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b]Objection 2.[/b] Further, "God hath concluded all in sin [Vulgate: 'unbelief'], that He may have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32). Now God has concluded the demons under sin, that is to say, He permitted them to be concluded. Therefore it would seem that in time He has mercy even on the demons.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b]Objection 3.[/b] Further, as Anselm says (Cur Deus Homo ii), "it is not just that God should permit the utter loss of a creature which He made for happiness." Therefore, since every rational creature was created for happiness, it would seem unjust for it to be allowed to perish altogether.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b]On the contrary,[/b] It is written (Matthew 25:41): "Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels." Therefore they will be punished eternally.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Further, just as the good angels were made happy through turning to God, so the bad angels were made unhappy through turning away from God. Therefore if the unhappiness of the wicked angels comes at length to an end, thehappiness of the good will also come to an end, which is inadmissible.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b]I answer that,[/b] As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xxi) Origen [Cf. I, 64, 2] "erred in maintaining that the demons will at length, through God's mercy, be delivered from their punishment." But this error has been condemned by theChurch for two reasons. First because it is clearly contrary to the authority of Holy Writ (Apocalypse 20:9-10): "The devil who seduced them was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beasts and the falseprophets [Vulgate: 'the beast and false prophet,' etc.] shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever," which is the Scriptural expression for eternity. Secondly, because this opinion exaggerated God's mercy in one direction and depreciated it in another. For it would seem equally reasonable for the good angels to remain in eternal happiness, and for the wicked angels to be eternally punished. Wherefore just as he maintained that the demonsand the souls of the damned are to be delivered at length from their sufferings, so he maintained that the angelsand the souls of the blessed will at length pass from their happy state to the unhappiness of this life.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b]Reply to Objection 1.[/b] God, for His own part, has mercy on all. Since, however, His mercy is ruled by the order of His wisdom, the result is that it does not reach to certain people who render themselves unworthy of that mercy, as do the demons and the damned who are obstinate in wickedness. And yet we may say that even in them His mercy finds a place, in so far as they are punished less than they deserve condignly, but not that they are entirely delivered from punishment.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b]Reply to Objection 2.[/b] In the words quoted the distribution (of the predicate) regards the genera and not the individuals: so that the statement applies to men in the state of wayfarer, inasmuch as He had mercy both onJews and on Gentiles, but not on every Gentile or every Jew.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b]Reply to Objection 3.[/b] Anselm means that it is not just in the sense of becoming God's goodness, and is speaking of the creature generically. For it becomes not the Divine goodness that a whole genus of creature fail of the end for which it was made: wherefore it is unbecoming for all men or all angels to be damned. But there is no reason why some men or some angels should perish for ever, because the intention of the Divine will is fulfilled in the others who are saved.[/font][/color][/size] From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, [size=4]366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.[235][/size] 235 Cf. Pius XII, Humani generis: DS 3896; Paul VI, CPC # 8; Lateran Council V (1513): DS 1440. [/quote] So in conclusion, souls exist forever. Edited: for font size Edited March 20, 2012 by eagle_eye222001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 @ Nihil Hey brother. Nothing specific just stuff on google. It looks as if Eagle_Eye just cleared things up. Although I still wouldn't mind hearing Apotheouns take on it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I don't think think it would make hell worth it if it was only finitie. It would still smell of elderberries just as much to not exist any more at least in my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 [quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332300065' post='2404579'] @ Nihil Hey brother. Nothing specific just stuff on google. It looks as if Eagle_Eye just cleared things up. Although I still wouldn't mind hearing Apotheouns take on it too. [/quote] Try some good Google searches and you might find some of his old posts on the subject. I can't think of good terms to use at the moment though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I might have made a big mistake though. I'm looking at an old thread now where Apo specifically denies that the damned will be annihilated. Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else, or misunderstood something else he said. I will look into this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) In case Apo is reading this, which is a distinct possibility, I sincerely apologize. :D I must have gotten you mixed up with someone else, because everything I'm reading indicates that you do not believe that, in fact the exact opposite. Not sure what lead to that misunderstanding, but I'm sure it was a communication error on my end. Edited March 21, 2012 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Here's a good thread on the issue, in reparation for my obviously erroneous and imprudent comments above. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/100446-is-it-better-to-be-in-hell-or-to-never-have-existed/"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/100446-is-it-better-to-be-in-hell-or-to-never-have-existed/[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1332302285' post='2404611'] Here's a good thread on the issue, in reparation for my obviously erroneous and imprudent comments above. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/100446-is-it-better-to-be-in-hell-or-to-never-have-existed/"]http://www.phatmass....r-have-existed/[/url] [/quote]haha I remember that thread... there's a term I need to remember: [i]apokatastasis[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1332333190' post='2404677'] haha I remember that thread... there's a term I need to remember: [i]apokatastasis[/i] [/quote] Reminds me of apoptosis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1332302209' post='2404609'] In case Apo is reading this, which is a distinct possibility, I sincerely apologize. :D I must have gotten you mixed up with someone else, because everything I'm reading indicates that you do not believe that, in fact the exact opposite. Not sure what lead to that misunderstanding, but I'm sure it was a communication error on my end. [/quote] It was probably me you're thinking of LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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