Byzantine Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 In [i]C[/i][i]hurch Fathers[/i], Pope Benedict talks about Jesus assuming a "rational mind." What sort of mind did He have before the Incarnation? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I would think that The Second Person of The Blessed Trinity would be Infinite and Divine prior to The Incarnation. The rational mind of Jesus reasoned as a human being, for He was and is truly human - and Truly God. So often in life, the workings of God can seem irrational to us simply because our humanity grants us a rational mind. Can you give a link please to what Pope Benedict said, would be interesting to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I'd like to see the wider context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 [quote name='Byzantine' timestamp='1332098100' post='2403094'] In [i]C[/i][i]hurch Fathers[/i], Pope Benedict talks about Jesus assuming a "rational mind." What sort of mind did He have before the Incarnation? Thanks! [/quote] Makes sense to me so I'll take a stab at it. Rational thinking is the process by which we learn and gain knowledge based on our observations and exploration of the world. Obviously the Omnipotent Christ (before the Incarnation) couldn't have a rational mind. But in taking on the finite bounds of human flesh, he would also take on the rational mind. It's one of those infinite-becoming-finite mysteries about the Person of Christ that can be forever explored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1332468647' post='2405722'] Makes sense to me so I'll take a stab at it. Rational thinking is the process by which we learn and gain knowledge based on our observations and exploration of the world. Obviously the Omnipotent Christ (before the Incarnation) couldn't have a rational mind. But in taking on the finite bounds of human flesh, he would also take on the rational mind. It's one of those infinite-becoming-finite mysteries about the Person of Christ that can be forever explored. [/quote] That's what I was starting to lean towards. A rational mind means a mind that is capable of using finite knowledge to attain further knowledge, or at least that's how I'm thinking about it. An omnipotent being doesn't need a rational mind because there is no further knowledge. However, of course when Jesus became Man He didn't lose His omnipotence, so clearly I've got more details to work out on that line of reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 To me........Our finite minds see the trees as it were and only the trees - God sees the Absolute Big picture whatever it may be. How Jesus could be truly man limited as we are and like us in all things except sin - and yet at one and the same time, Truly God is an Absolute Mystery - I dont think our finite minds can make any sense of it whatsoever. It is the Absolute Big Picture which we can never see since God is Infinite. We can only believe in Faith that Jesus was indeed truly a human being etc. and at the one and the same time, Truly God .......... the trees as it were. Will things become any clearer in Heaven with the Beatific Vision, I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Pope Benedict is writing about the necessity for Christ to have a fully human, i.e. rational mind, so that He could "be like us in all things except sin." In the late fourth century a bishop by the name of Apollinarius came up with the idea that Christ needed only a human body in order to die on the cross and perform the works He did. Since the Word is wisdom itself, then the Word took the place that our rational mind (and soul) take in us as people. This particular theory has its roots in the writings of St. Athanasius who never really spoke about Christ's human soul. Apollinarius thought that the best way to preserve Christ's divinity would be to assert that the Word took the place of a rational mind/or soul in the Incarnate Christ. At the second ecumenical council, Constantinople I, in 381, Apollinarianism was completely rejected as false. The council said that not only was Christ entirely divine, but He was also completely human as well. To be completely human means that He must have had a rational soul (including a rational mind) and a human body as well, as does every human person. The question of the union was further raised in Alexandria in the early 5th century (from Ephesus in 431 we get the title "Mary, Mother of God") and not truly settled until 451 at the Council of Chalcedon. This holy council reaffirmed the full humanity and divinity in Christ which come together in a single hypostasis (person)--hence we get hypostatic union--in a way that does not mix the two natures, nor are they separate as though Christ is two people. What Pope Benedict means is that Christ has a fully rational soul like any human person, even though He is wisdom itself. One of the great mysteries of the Incarnation is how this could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Jesus as God was at the beginning of our world, Jesus growing up as a carpenter's son still had to learn how to cut wood and use a saw to build a table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1332481436' post='2405948'] However, of course when Jesus became Man He didn't lose His omnipotence, so clearly I've got more details to work out on that line of reasoning. [/quote] I'm not sure that Jesus was omnipotent in his human nature. There are times in the Gospels when he knows peoples' thoughts, but I would say that knowledge was revealed to him from the Father. How many times does Jesus make a point about how he does things according to what his Father tells him? "Not my will, but yours." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 As stated by qfnol31: "The question of the union was further raised in Alexandria in the early 5th century (from Ephesus in 431 we get the title "Mary, Mother of God") and not truly settled until 451 at the Council of Chalcedon. This holy council reaffirmed the full humanity and divinity in Christ which come together in a single hypostasis (person)--hence we get hypostatic union--in a way that does not mix the two natures, nor are they separate as though Christ is two people." This is Mystery and mystery is just what it implies: i.e. cannot be understood by our finite rational minds. Our finite minds need to be transcended by Faith, believing in what is stated but not understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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