The Order Of Sacraments

[Slappo]

I'm all for chrismation. Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist in that order as an infant, but I get that from hanging out with too many Eastern Catholics . Interestingly enough with the Eastern Church, I believe second Eucharist isn't received until after the age of reason when you make your first confession. [color=#FF0000]I was corrected by an Eastern Catholic I know. They receive the Eucharist regularly after chrismation.[/color]

I have a hard time with any mindset that requires the individual to intellectually understand one of the sacraments of initiation before they can receive it. We don't require this with baptism, and there is no theological reason to require it with Confirmation. With the Eucharist it either needs to be as an infant or after the age of reason upon making first confession though as the child needs to be well disposed and free of all mortal sin.

Edit: See red notes.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Slappo

[AnneLine]

Nihil Obstat, OK, that makes sense-- nothing to object to, certainly!

I can totally understand why you would have problems discussing this in one paragraph!

When I was confirmed (dinosaur sightings, anyone?) they stressed the coming ot the Holy Spirit, the greater fullness of the gifts we were given in baptism, and I know it was stressed to us that we were 'soldiers for Christ' (not a popular image during the Vietnam War, by the way....). We were told it was a one-time-only sacrament (like Baptism), and that it would leave an indelible mark on our souls. We were told about the gifts and fruits of the Spirit, but I don't think it made much impression on me....but it did later They also stressed that graces were received that would help us to live out our Baptismal vows (the ones that we or our God parents had taken in our names).

Any [i]problem[/i] with any of that? (Obviously it is too simplistic, but anything WRONG with it? Wouldn't be the first time...)

Since then I have learned more about how the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are deepened and ... I am struggling for words here... 'opened' so we can serve God better...

That's what occurs to me thinking back... 45 or more years ago. Did I miss anything critical... or learn anything wrong?

I'm asking in part because I am suposed to review the Sacraments with those who are in Secular Order Formation (let's get it right....) (and yes, we DO have them read the Catechism!)

Thanks!

Edited March 16, 2012 by AnneLine

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331930396' post='2401953']
I'm all for chrismation. Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist in that order as an infant, but I get that from hanging out with too many Eastern Catholics . Interestingly enough with the Eastern Church, I believe second Eucharist isn't received until after the age of reason when you make your first confession. [color=#FF0000]I was corrected by an Eastern Catholic I know. They receive the Eucharist regularly after chrismation.[/color]

I have a hard time with any mindset that requires the individual to intellectually understand one of the sacraments of initiation before they can receive it. We don't require this with baptism, and there is no theological reason to require it with Confirmation. With the Eucharist it either needs to be as an infant or after the age of reason upon making first confession though as the child needs to be well disposed and free of all mortal sin.

Edit: See red notes.
[/quote]

I don't think your red note is universally true in the east. I've certainly heard from some sources that infants receive once, then not again until around the age of reason. I imagine there's a lot of local variation, given the nature of their Churches.

[Lil Red]

our diocese has the restored order. it's a mixed bag of results.

[cappie]

Quite often in the past history of the Church (19-20 century) the Western church has placed great importance on intellectual preparation for the sacraments. This is sound but it is not good theology. "The purpose of the sacraments is to sanctify men, to build up the body of Christ, and, finally, to give worship to God. Because they are signs they also instruct. They not only presuppose faith, but by words and objects they also nourish, strengthen and express it." (Vat. II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, No. 59). I think also of disabled people.

Disabled persons are entitled to as full a share as possible in the Sacramental life of the Church. Every effort should be made by parents, guardians, priests, religious, catechists and the whole Christian community to give disabled persons the opportunities and supports they require to participate in the Sacramental life of the Church in accordance with their faith, their abilities and personal vocation, so that they might be drawn into ever more perfect union with God and other members of the Church and thus contribute to the building up of the Body of Christ.

To use the sacrament of Confirmation which was for my generation some form of intellectual hurdle, even to being questioned by the Bishop about the Catechism. This was all very good, but really theologically and canonically, it was not necessary. As my professor at the seminary said, by all means have a rite of transmission, an act of "ownership" of our Christian faith, but don't call it Confirmation.

Confirmation is the second stage of Christian initiation; it establishes Christians as witnesses to the world. Just as with Baptism, disabled persons, like able-bodied people, are entitled to this second stage of Christian initiation; they, too, are capable of giving significant Christian witness.

Like baptised able-bodied people, baptised disabled persons (including children) who are mentally alert, should receive appropriate instructions and make fitting preparation for Confirmation in accordance with the custom of the local Church.

For baptised intellectually disabled persons those instructions and the preparation should be suitably modified, even to the point of no instruction and no preparation.

Edited March 16, 2012 by cappie

[AnneLine]

Thank you, Father, I appreciate that. Not sure where that leaves us on this discussion, but it does make it more sensible to give the kids the sacrament, I guess, if they can GET it earlier, even if they don't always understand what they are receiving... after all, who does! but God does and will give us the graces to profit as we mature....yes?

[cappie]

Yes, and one of the things the Church does expect is ongoing education in the faith in the Christian community but I'm not too sure that happens.

[filius_angelorum]

Most parish catechetical programs, in my opinion, operate under the principle that if children are allowed to "get" their sacraments early, they will never see the children again. In essence, they hold the sacraments up for ransom at the price of sending the children to CCD. This is not the way to dispense the graces of the sacraments. Above all, access to the sacraments should be based on the children's desire to receive them, if they are not to be given to infants as in the Eastern churches.

This is not impractical. Sacramental preparation does not have to be a year-long classroom environment, but can take place in a relatively short period of time, such as summer or Lent, and with a small, informal group of students/children who want to receive the Sacraments. In fact, there should be a sharp contrast between the year-long ongoing catechetical/Sunday school classes which are meant to give students adequate formation and understanding of the faith, and sacramental preparation, which requires extraordinary and particular formation. Smashing the two together sends the wrong message to parents that the only reason for learning about one's faith is to achieve some sort of "rite of passage."

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='cappie' timestamp='1331937514' post='2402005']
Yes, and one of the things the Church does expect is ongoing education in the faith in the Christian community but I'm not too sure that happens.
[/quote]

They disappear until they want a church wedding

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

I am being Confirmed this year, and sad to say, many of the kids in my class truly, truly believe that Confirmation makes you an "adult in the Church". It does not, must I point out that in the Byzantine Rite (if I am not mistaken), they Confirm as infants, so the whole "adult in the Church" thing is an error all together. I want to be Confirmed because I want to complete (or rather, continue) what began at Baptism. I want to be a fully initiated Catholic, be able to stand up for my Faith better, and the like. Confirmation is Baptism pt. 2.

[sixpence]

all i know is...1. the name "confirmation" helps with that misleading idea of "confirming" this as your choice. 2. I thought my parents would murder me if I decided not to get confirmed, and i wish i could have choosen on my own. 3. I'm very glad I recieved the sacrament anyhow.

[filius_angelorum]

Sixpence, I have no problem with the idea that some children receive the sacrament of confirmation out of fear of their parents, but I do have a problem with the fact that many parents are motivated by Church weddings and rites of passage rather than their children's sanctification.

Edited March 19, 2012 by filius_angelorum

[Lil Red]

[quote name='filius_angelorum' timestamp='1332192996' post='2404142']
Sixpence, I have no problem with the idea that some children receive the sacrament of confirmation out of fear of their parents, but I do have a problem with the fact that many parents are motivated by Church weddings and rites of passage rather than their children's sanctification.
[/quote]

this happens whether the child is in 2nd grade or is 16. some parents will always see Confirmation as a 'graduation' into the faith, and will stop bringing their child after that point.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1332195727' post='2404158']


this happens whether the child is in 2nd grade or is 16. some parents will always see Confirmation as a 'graduation' into the faith, and will stop bringing their child after that point.
[/quote]In Liverpool, we saw so many bring their children for their First Holy Communion, all dressed up, then not come again.