MissScripture Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Here is an article about a Bishop (the Bishop of Fargo) who put confirmation back before First Communion. [url="http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/bishop-aquila-finds-an-ally-for-changing-the-order-of-the-sacraments"]http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/bishop-aquila-finds-an-ally-for-changing-the-order-of-the-sacraments[/url] I wonder which other diocese have done this, and if any more are planning to. I would really like if all the diocese would restore the order. It drives me nuts when people act like confirmation is Catholic graduation or something. I also think it's important for children nowadays to have as much grace from the sacraments as they can. It makes no sense to me to withhold such a powerful sacrament through the teen years when they really, really need it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I can't read bishops' minds, wish I could, but I have a suspicion that more of this is going to happen. Once confirmation got moved back from 13ish, where people thought of it like a catholic bar mitzvah, it is inevitable that it be viewed once again as it was originally, as a sacrament of initiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneLine Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I don't know. I see what the bishop is saying, but I am torn. I've taught CCD including 1st Communion, Confirmation and several 'catch-up' class for kids between 3rd and 8th grade who somehow didn't get into the 1st Communion/1st Penance class (usually because they had moved or the parents didn't bother to get them to CCD and Church.). I understand what the bishop is trying to do (and I get the initiation Sacrament stuff, really I do...) but here's the problem: In Grade 2 some (but not all) are ready to understand what the Eucharist is. My experience has been when they receive a little older (and I was in 4th grade when I received Him for the first time, so perhaps I have a bias....) they understand more and they 'long' for Him more. Some kids are ready, but asking most of my friends they don't even remember, and wish they did... and I do. My FAVORITE ccd class to teach was the older kids Penance/Eucharist class. I loved helping them to really love Penance... and to really understand wht the Eucharist and Mass was really all about. What a privilge it is to receive Jesus... and that that is WHO they are receiving. They 'got' it and could make the connections. And THEY took what they were learning back to their parents.... and got them back into the loop. One fourth grader even called the priest and got the last sacraments for her dying grandmother! It was a joy watching God work... Of course, I'm a little biased - I was baptized and made my first confession/first communion at age 10, and so I remember ALL my sacraments. And I know they are precious memories. (Not advocating that, by the way... but sometimes there are good reasons..... in my case, my parents weren't both Catholic, and once I decided I wanted to do this, I had to take a year of instructions. So I made the choice... and never regretted it....) I could get behind confirmation in 4th grade followed by First Penance and Eucharist... Those kids REALLY are at an age where God seems to take hold of their hearts.... I think it is partially developmental.... it just all falls into place for them. I think I would leave confirmation at the start of the teen years.. at 7th / 8th grade. But I know some of you are more theologically trained than I am, and there may be very good theological reasons for this.... but sometimes those don't always fit with the real world, sad as that may be. (I am sure I will start a huge fire with this!) I have a close friend whose diocese has instituted the 'revised order'.... and her experience is that the kids don't have a clue and that the parents are THRILLED to 'have it over with' so they don't have to take the kids any more... and so that it doesn't 'interfere' with middle school graduation (what are they thinking!!!). She is especially concerned about her Godson... and the parents laugh and tell her she is being silly. Yes, I know that isn't what is suposed to happen... but it is what IS happening too many places. If Confirmation AND Penance AND Eucharist are in the 2nd grade, I am really concerned that WAY too many kids will forget the incredible graces they have been given if it is not reinforced by the parents. Granted, God won't forget, but still.... My suspicion is that not all the bishops are looking at this with the eyes that this bishop is.... for a lot of dioceses, this will simply make life easier as everyone will already be confirmed when it comes time for marriage. Call me cynical.... Our diocese usually does either 7/8th grade or toward end of high school. Problem with high school is too many are already OUT of the loop by then and don't get back in -- so you end up with a herd of people who are ONLY going through the sacrament to get married 8 or 10 years later. Not good. Happens every year. See last paragraph.... Enough of a mini-rant from me. I'm curious to know what the rest of you think on this topic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I agree, MS! Liverpool did this starting this year, I think. Wish more did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappie Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 In Australia several dioceses have made the switch. In Brisbane it happened in 1989, it is up to the individual bishop. Remember the Orthodox and the Eastern Rite Catholic confirm at Baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 My confirmation wasn't until I was in 10th or 11th grade, so 15 or 16, and that's when it was for most people I know (in real life, anyway. I'm not sure how it was for most people I know on PM). I remember in my confirmation class the attitude from the other students was that it was very much a Catholic graduation and once you were confirmed you didn't need to go to Mass anymore. And from that experience, and hearing my parents talk about teaching confirmation, it doesn't sound like many of the students have any idea what graces they're getting, anyway. No matter when it it, the parents need to be involved and reinforcing this stuff at any age or it's not going to "take." And first reconciliation needs to be around age 7, because that is considered the age of reason. So, it's at that point when kids can start having personal sin, and they need to be able to go to confession, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneLine Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Agreed about reconciliation (as I said, I wasn't Catholic at that point...). Problem I have seen (and this is a TEACHING problem, not a kids problelm) is that some Penance programs are so scared of 'scarring' the kids with so-called Catholic guilt that they don't WANT the kids to get a sense of sin. How silly -- the kids HAVE it. As you noted, they are at the age of REASON. Duhh.... sorry, I'm still in rant mode! I don't know what to do about the Catholic Graduation/bar mitzveh problem. We had the same problem with some of the candidates for my Secular Order.... apparently there are a few that just don't come back after making Definitive Promises... no mather WHAT they are told. And they are ADULTs who have had it clearly explained what the realitity should be. Hasn't been a problem in my community, but I guess it has been in the Province. Baffles our Order... saddens me... Edited March 16, 2012 by AnneLine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1331924166' post='2401911'] Agreed about reconciliation (as I said, I wasn't Catholic at that point...) I don't know what to do about the Catholic Graduation problem. We had the same problem with some of the candidates for my Secular Order.... apparently there are a few that just don't come back after making Definitive Promises... no mather WHAT they are told. And they are ADULTs who have had it clearly explained what the realitity should be. Baffles our Order... saddens me... [/quote]Sad. I will say a prayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1331924166' post='2401911'] Agreed about reconciliation (as I said, I wasn't Catholic at that point...). Problem I have seen (and this is a TEACHING problem, not a kids problelm) is that some Penance programs are so scared of 'scarring' the kids with so-called Catholic guilt that they don't WANT the kids to get a sense of sin. How silly -- the kids HAVE it. As you noted, they are at the age of REASON. Duhh.... sorry, I'm still in rant mode! I don't know what to do about the Catholic Graduation/bar mitzveh problem. We had the same problem with some of the candidates for my Secular Order.... apparently there are a few that just don't come back after making Definitive Promises... no mather WHAT they are told. And they are ADULTs who have had it clearly explained what the realitity should be. Hasn't been a problem in my community, but I guess it has been in the Province. Baffles our Order... saddens me... [/quote] At least with confirmation I can understand a little bit, because some of the kids were being forced to get confirmed by their parents. If they are adults and choosing to go through formation for a secular order, then why would you NOT keep coming back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneLine Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) I totally agree, Archeology Cat & Miss Scripture. I was astonished when they told us that at a Formators meeting. The Provincial Delegate thinks that it goes back to the same reason why people don't continue after Confirmation -- bad catechesis, for lack of a better word. Neither one is a graduation - they are an assuming of an obligation... and a statement with your whole body and soul that this is what you want to do with your life. Both have very specific graces (obviously Confirmation even more so) -- and I can't understand WHY someone would go through SEVEN YEARS of formation and then do this. Mind boggling. This is why they have had us SLOW PEOPLE DOWN at the very start -- now they ask us to have them come to some meetings before they even start... and get into habits of praying LOTH and mental prayer and daily (or weekly) study and attending meetings BEFORE we even start training them in the spirituality of our Order.... and it is paying off. We lose a lot of people at the start now, but those that enter into formation as Novices generally stick it out to Definitive Profession unless they get sick or have something happen in their world that shows God doesn't want them in the Order. The only people who don't continue attending meetings in our community are those who are truly sick or so elderly (90's) that we can understand why they aren't there.... we even have 80+ year olds involved in active participation in our community....so it CAN be done... it just needs to be be taught. Which brings us back to the original question -- how do we get the kids (and their parents) behind this kind of dedication at the Confirmation level? Edited March 16, 2012 by AnneLine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureSister2009 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Well since I have already received both sacraments, it doesn't affect me. But thats weird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Late confirmation has lead to a pretty widespread misunderstanding of the actual meaning of the sacrament. I had laboured under a false impression of it for far too long. It's not even the kids misunderstanding it, it's the people teaching the kids. I'm pretty mad, actually, that a very large portion of what I was taught about confirmation was actually incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 In an ideal world, there wouldn't *be* any cookie-cutter age requirements-- 2nd grade this, 10th grade that. In the best cases, the parents would see that their child was ready to learn about and prepare for the sacrament. The priest could meet with them and see that, yes, it's time. This would be best, imho. Last year, my dd cried when I told her that our priest had said "no" to her being confirmed in 9th grade instead of 10th as it's done in our large parish. She was definately ready. She had studied a lot, prayed a lot... and she really wanted to be confirmed. Our priest said that if it "got out" that it was permissable to be confirmed in 9th grade, many parents would want that exception because by 10th grade, kids are driving, have jobs, and are just busier. I understood his dilemma, I guess. (He did sorta hint at another parish nearby where she could be confirmed earlier, if we wanted.) But it shouldn't be that way. Likewise, when my youngest was about 5, he would cry when the rest of us went up for Communion because he thought it was a dirty deal that he wasn't allowed to have Jesus, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneLine Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) HSMom nailed it - but I am out of props. PROP! Absolutely it should be when kids/people are ready... .but that longing is a way of receiving it its own way, and they can be encouraged to pray that those who are receiving realize the privilege that is theirs.... that is what I did with our kids who were oldelr and taking instructions before receiving. (Some had had NO catechisis at all.... sad!) As far as the Secular Order, our guests and aspirants DROOL for the first two years before being admitted as novices.... and then the DROOL while they watch the others being allowed ot take First Promises and then Definitive Promises. We insist that they not only do their prayer and homework... but also take part in 'raising' those who are just starting and get involved in the work of the community. Membership in a community like being in a big family and THAT is why your kiids are ready, HSMom -- they've had the example, they have done the homework, they get what it is all about. And Jesus wants your youngest as much as he wants to receive Him!!! Love will win out! So sad that you have confirmed (no pun intended!) my suspicions that sometimes the timing is more around what the parents want than what would be best for the kids... Nihil Obstat, I'm interested in knowing more about what you were taught wrongly, and what you wish you had known. Edited March 16, 2012 by AnneLine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1331929293' post='2401944'] Nihil Obstat, I'm interested in knowing more about what you were taught wrongly, and what you wish you had known. [/quote] The whole idea that confirmation is where the child finally 'chooses for himself' to be part of the Church, or like a Catholic bar mitzvah. It's very wrong, and very much downplays the actual sacramental reality. Especially wrong is the you're "finally choosing for yourself". There's almost too much wrong with that idea to even address in a short post. There was so much we could have learned that is actually true, and actually relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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