Non-catholic Arguments

[dairygirl4u2c]

How can you not see the point of this exercise? This is the inter-faith dialouge is it not? And didn't I state my purpose in my opening thread?

[quote]Just to make sure you understand their best arguments and not just what you've created in your mind.[/quote]


I am trying to point out the ignorance on part of the majority of Catholics here and am open to pointing out my ignorance as well. This exercise is a way to get them to think about what it is they believe and why others don't believe it. Maybe they'll look for some arguments against the Catholic Church to refute them and discover some things along the way. It should get them to realize that while their faith can be defended, so can many others, and they should reexamine their ignorance if that is the case. Perhaps it can be defended, but not proven.

I am not saying you are all blatantly ignorant, this is just to explore other faiths better since that is the purpose of this thread. And I know for a fact that some of you know more than I do and know the non Catholic arguments better than I do too. Since we'll all agree that that's the case, that you know the arguments better, to all the smart guys, now state 'em.

Edited May 17, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 17 2004, 12:29 PM']Maybe it'd help if I gave an example. Say you think the best argument is that while we have all this proof for the Catholic Church's validity, perhaps all the dissenting evidence was burned by some pope in time. It's a weak argument, I agree. There are better arguments than this, but no one here gives any of them and I want to see if they do.

Many astute minds have not bought into the Catholic Church either. Citing smart guys isn't gonna get you anywhere cuz there's smart guys in every walk of life.


Even if the arguments are stupid, please, again, state some. Even if the Catholic Church is objectively true.. in fact I'll grant you that for the sake of argument... now point out why all the smart guys who don't by into the Catholic Church don't buy into it. Point out the logical fallacies. Point out the fact that they are denying what is obvious such as someone denying that they exist. Point out that they are denying historical fact. (if you think that's really the case) If it's a formidable/subtle (just not obivously bad ones) heresy that has been defeated, mention it, and you can even say why it doesn't hold water if you want. But please someone say SOMETHING to answer the questions!    :ph34r:[/quote]
dairygirl4u2c,

You are going about this the wrong way. Why point out what you "think" is false?
Number one the Catholic Church teaches nothing false 100% Truth, some can accept it, some can't. I pray all come to accept the beautiful Truth of the Catholic Church

Why focus on problems? When Christ established His Catholic Church He did so with the [b]weeds and the wheat together.[/b] Indivdual problems are not a source from the Catholic Church but comes from the person who has done so. If I sin and do something wrong, it's not Mother Church it's me. That's why we have Confession to have our sins forgiven and come back into community with the Church. You are taking human weakness and comparing them to the Church, the Foundation of Christ One Teaching Stands FIRM.

The Foundation stands firm no matter what goes on within the Church. Maybe I'm not getting your question? There is over 2000 years of proof the gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Catholic Church. Those that love Her and stand by Her unto death.

[quote]Many astute minds have not bought into the Catholic Church either.[/quote]
Do you have to be smart to accept the One Truth. NO! We are supposed to be as children trusting in Our Heavenly Father. Yes we all have different gifts, but your statement confuses me, "Bought Into", number one there is no need to buy into the Truth. You FREELY accept it or reject, we have a FREE WILL.

Instead of looking for arguments on things, pray.

God Bless
Pax
Jason

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Maybe I'm not getting your question? There is over 2000 years of proof the gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Catholic Church. [/quote]

I don't think you understood my ?. I'm not asking for individual problems with people in the Catholic Church, I am asking about the whole basis for the Catholic Church. You state that over 2000 years proves your church, and now I ask YOU to state why a smart guy would not agree with you. You can even debunk him if you want. (remember to use the best stuff you can find even if you think it's all silly)

Edited May 17, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Livin_the_MASS]

Hold on I'll get Scripture don't go no where

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]The Praise of the Father[/b]  [i]Matthew 11:25[/i]

"At that time Jesus replied, "I give praise to you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have [b]hidden these things from the wise and the learned[/b] you have [b]revealed[/b] them to the [b]childlike."[/b][/quote]

Meditate on this passage and read the story before this verse [b]"Jesus Testimony to John"[/b]

[b]Matthew 11:18[/b]
He speaks of John coming [quote]"neither eating or drinking and they said "He is possessed by a demon."[/quote]

[b]Matthew 11:19[/b]
Then he speaks of Himself [quote]"The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they said 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is vindicated by her works.[/quote]

Just a few examples of rejecting The Truth because someone thinks their smart instead of submitting to the Holy Will of God and becoming as a child. Both came with Truth (John and Jesus) but others said other wise.

You have to be open to receive the Truth, it is refused to the arrogant.

God Bless
Pax
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

[dairygirl4u2c]

My supposed arrogance doesn't have anything to do with my theology. I really don't think I am being arrogant! seriously! Anyway, there are childlike believers who hold to my tenents regardless of me. Therefore being childlike doesn't validate your claim.

I would like to stop the emotional talk lest we get more side-tracked so I won't respond to much more of this type of talk. I will stay persistant on staying focused though. Hopefully someone will respond to the thread's purpose so we can have a conversation based on the facts, such as history. (just not the facts of emotions lol)

Edited May 17, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Livin_the_MASS]

haha, man oh man, Sacred Scripture is side tracking

Prayer is being "emotional"

Theology is the fruit of the two.

Hope you find what your heart searches for
God Bless You
Jason

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Theology is the fruit of the two.[/quote]

Thanks Jason. And just for the record..... I agree.



And now so that everyone else doesn't think this thread is over, just a little preemptive



*BUMP*

[the lumberjack]

dairygirl....how can I put this shortly?

what you are attempting to do in this thread is like asking a wolf the benefits of being a vegetarian...

[Ellenita]

[quote]I am trying to point out the ignorance on the part of the majority of Catholics here and am open to pointing out my ignorance aswell. This exercise is a way to get them to think about what it is they believe and why others don't believe it.  Maybe they'll look for arguments against the Catholic Church to refute them and discover some things along the way.[/quote]

Ah, so the purpose of this thread is for us Catholics to find some arguments against our church and use these astounding arguments to question whether or not the church that we believe contains the fullness of Truth actually is as she claims?!

Personally I'm happy to debate the reasons why I came to accept that the Catholic church contains the fullness of Truth with people from other faiths when they raise the, more than often, lies spoken out against her, but go and seek those out myself for a pointless debate when I have freely and honestly accepted that that which the church teaches is Truth - why would I be interested in doing that? Those of us who spent many years in different protestant denominations know the arguments they put forward and found them lacking......

[quote]You rely way too much on your emotions.[/quote]

Actually I had my fill of [i]relying[/i] on my emotions during my time spent in some of the protestant denominations (admittedly not all!) that I used to attend. It was the pure logic of the argument of the Catholic church that first had an impact on me. She stands the test of time and intellectual rigour.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]what you are attempting to do in this thread is like asking a wolf the benefits of being a vegetarian...
[/quote]

And the wolf can humor me. He can say that vegetarians claim to get lots of vitamins and don't harm animals. Then he can rebuke the argument saying that he gets vitamins and what he needs and God said that nothing he said was clean shall be unclean, that it was okay to eat meat. So the wolf is in the right.

If I am the vegetarian then I could say why the wolf thinks he is right, then I will refute it and say why I think he is wrong.

In fact as I said. As a non catholic I will take anyone up on the deal where I am in the one explaining catholic beliefs. It's not hard, why is this turning out to be so hard??


[quote]Ah, so the purpose of this thread is for us Catholics to find some arguments against our church and use these astounding arguments to question whether or not the church that we believe contains the fullness of Truth actually is as she claims?![/quote]

You might say that is my purpose. My purpose is to make you learn something. If you are so confident that you won't find anything to shake your faith, then take me up on my deal. Find something formidable/subtle yet heresy and refute it.

Edited May 18, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[phatcatholic]

dairygirl,

i found an article that may be what ur looking for:

[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0057.html"][b]How I Led Catholics Away from the Church[/b][/url]

I was a Protestant for twenty years before I became a Catholic. Working as a youth leader, campus and prison evangelist, and church pastor, I led many people — including friends and relatives — out of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, it was surprisingly easy. My formula for getting Catholics to leave the Church usually consisted of three steps.

[b]STEP 1: Get Catholics to have a conversion experience in a Protestant setting.[/b]

Most Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and charismatic Protestant churches have dynamic youth programs, vibrant Wednesday and Sunday evening services, and friendly small-group bible studies. In addition, they host special crusades, seminars and concerts. At the invitation of a Protestant friend, a Catholic may begin attending one or more of these events while still going to Sunday Mass at his local parish.

Most Protestant services proclaim a simple gospel: repent from sin and follow Christ in faith. They stress the importance of a personal relationship with Jesus and the reward of eternal life. Most of the Catholics who attend these services are not accustomed to hearing such direct challenges to abandon sin and follow Christ. As a result, many Catholics experience a genuine conversion.

Protestants should be commended for their zeal in promoting conversions. Catholic leaders need to multiply the opportunities for their people to have such conversions in Catholic settings. The reason is simple. About five out of ten people adopt the beliefs of the denomination where they have their conversion. This percentage is even higher for those who had profound conversions or charismatic experiences that were provided by Protestants. (Believe me, I know; I was a graduate of an Assembly of God college and a youth minister in two charismatic churches.)

Protestant pastors, evangelists, youth leaders, and lay ministers are acutely aware that conversion experiences in Protestant settings often lead to a Protestant faith and church membership. Why do so many Catholic leaders fail to see this? Why are they so nonchalant about a process that has pulled hundreds of thousands of Catholics out of the Church?

[b]STEP 2: Give their conversion a Protestant interpretation.[/b]

A genuine conversion is one of life's most precious experiences, comparable to marriage or the birth of a child. Conversion awakens a deep hunger for God. Effective Protestant ministries train workers to follow up on this spiritual longing.

Before a stadium crusade, I would give follow-up workers a six-week training course. I showed them how to present a Protestant interpretation of the conversion experience with a selective use of bible verses. The scripture of choice was of course John 3:3, the "born-again" verse: "Jesus declared, 'I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.'

I used the "touch and go" scripture technique, similar to that used by pilots training for landings and takeoffs. We would briefly touch down on John 3:3 to show that being born again was necessary for eternal life. Then I would describe conversion in terms of being born again. We would make a hasty takeoff before reading John 3:5 which stresses the necessity of being "born of water and spirit." I never mentioned that for 20 centuries the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, echoing the unanimous teaching of the Church fathers, understood this passage as referring to the Sacrament of Baptism! And I certainly never brought up Titus 3:5 ("He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit") as a parallel reference to John 3:5.

In my experience as a Protestant, all the Catholics who had a conversion in a Protestant setting lacked a firm grasp of their Catholic faith.

In twenty years of Protestant ministry, I never met a Catholic who knew that John 3:3-8 describes the sacrament of Baptism. It wasn't hard to convince them to disregard the sacraments along with the Church that emphasized the sacraments.

Proverbs says: "He who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him" (18:17). Catholics without a scriptural foundation for their Catholic beliefs never hear "the rest of the story." My selective use of scripture made the Protestant perspective seem so absolutely sure. Over time, this one-sided approach to scripture caused Catholics to reject their Catholic faith.

[b]STEP 3: Accuse the Catholic church of denying salvation by grace.[/b]

Catholics often consider Protestants who proselytize to be bigoted, narrow-minded, or prejudiced. This is unfair and inaccurate; a profound charity energizes their misguided zeal.

There was only one reason I led Catholics out of the Church: I thought they were on their way to hell. I mistakenly thought the Catholic Church denied that salvation was by grace; I knew that anyone who believed this wasn't going to heaven. Out of love for their immortal souls, I worked tirelessly to convert them.

I used Ephesians 2:8-9 to convince Catholics that it was imperative for them to leave the Church:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast.
First I would say, "The Bible says that salvation is by grace and not by works. Right?" Their answer was always yes. Then I would say, "The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is by works. Right?" (I never met a Catholic who did not say yes. Every Catholic I met during my twenty years of ministry confirmed my misconception that Catholicism taught salvation is by works instead of grace.) Finally, I would declare, "The Catholic Church is leading people to hell by denying salvation is by grace. You'd better join a church that teaches the true way to heaven."

Because I would also do a "touch and go" in Ephesians, I rarely quoted verse 10 which says, "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Listen carefully to stadium evangelists, televangelists, and radio preachers. Nine times out of ten they will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 with great emphasis and never mention verse 10.

We are not slaves futilely trying to earn salvation by doing "works of the law" (Eph. 2:8-9). Yet as sons of God we are inspired and energized by the Holy Spirit to do "good works" as we cooperate with our heavenly father in extending the Kingdom of God (Eph. 2:10). Catholicism believes and teaches the full message of Ephesians 2:8-10, without equivocating or abbreviating the truth.

For twenty centuries the Catholic Church has faithfully taught that salvation is by grace. Peter the first pope said, "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved" (Acts 15:11). The Catechism of the Catholic Church, fully endorsed by Pope John Paul II, says, "Our justification comes from the grace of God" (section 1996).

Protestantism started when Martin Luther declared that we are justified (made righteous) by faith alone. At the time I was leading Catholics out of the Church, I wasn't aware that Martin Luther had added the word alone to his translation of Romans 3:28 in order to prove his doctrine. (The word alone is not found in any contemporary Protestant English translation of Romans 3:28.) I didn't realize that the only place the bible mentions "faith alone" in the context of salvation is in James 2:24, where the idea of faith alone is explicitly refuted: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." This verse was troubling, but I either ignored it, or twisted it to mean something other that what the verse and its context clearly taught.

Should Catholics participate in Protestant events?

I have no objection to Catholics participating in Protestant-oriented events and worthwhile ecumenical activities provided that:

--they have a firm grasp of their Catholic faith.
--they know their faith well enough to articulate it to a non-Catholic, using scripture and the Church fathers.
--they have the maturity to realize that the most profound presence of Christ isn't necessarily found in the midst of loud noise and high emotion, but in quiet moments like Eucharistic adoration (see 1 Kings 19:11-12).

Unfortunately, the majority of Catholic men born after WWII don't meet the above conditions. For them, attending Protestant functions may be opening a door that will lead them right out of the Catholic Church.

There are now thousands of Catholic men on the brink of leaving the one Church Christ died to establish. I recently heard of a group of Catholic men who decided not to consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church in their small-group bible study. They believed that all they needed was scripture alone. Three of these men claimed that they no longer believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I can tell you from experience where this group is headed: straight out of the Catholic Church.

Over the past three decades, thousands of Catholics have left the Church for Protestant pastures. The largest church in America is the Catholic Church; the second largest group of Christians in America is former-Catholics. The Catholic men's movement has a solemn obligation to help men discover the biblical and historical roots of their Catholic faith. Then, rather than leaving, they will become instruments to help others discover the treasures of Catholicism.

Remember that a man who leaves the Church will often take his family with him — for generations. It took my family four hundred years — 10 generations — to come back to the Church after a generation of my ancestors in Norway, England, Germany and Scotland decided to leave the Catholic Church.

As one whose family has made the round-trip back to Catholicism, let me extend a personal plea to Catholic men, especially the leaders of various Catholic men's groups: don't put untrained Catholics in a Protestant setting. They might gain a short-term religious experience, but they take the long-term risk of losing their faith. It would be highly irresponsible to expose them to Protestantism before they are fully exposed to Catholicism.

At my dad's funeral twenty-nine years ago, I tearfully sang his favorite hymn, Faith of Our Fathers. Little did my dad, a minister's son, or I realize that the true faith of our forefathers was Roman Catholicism. Every day I thank God for bringing me back to the ancient Church of my ancestors. Every year God gives me breath on this earth I will keep proclaiming to both my Protestant brethren and to cradle Catholics the glorious faith of our fathers.

Edited May 18, 2004 by phatcatholic

[mulls]

the Church needs to step up, from what this guy is saying.