Lil Red Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 i think many people have a visceral reaction to disrespect of the flag because of family members or friends who have died, been maimed, or otherwise served their country with honor. i mean, i was [i]ticked off[/i] when i saw the flag being flown at night without illumination. just a side note: to see the respect that was given my uncle's remains, even though there was precious little, was a pretty powerful sight to behold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331847971' post='2401408'] And I ignore it even harder. ^_^ But it's not really a thing here. Like, you ask 100 Canadians about the flag code, I bet you maybe one could tell you even one thing about it. Ask 100 Americans, and it seems like a pretty sizable number know a fair bit about it. ETA: It's also not particularly common for regular people to fly the flag. Seems far more common in the US. [/quote] Considering the history of the USA and Canada, I'm not surprised that we have more respect for our flag. As Lil Red said, we fought for it, died for it. (Now would be a good time point out that I am an immigrant that became a US citizen along with my parents in the 80s. I don't care. I have friends and family in the military; I have voted in every election that I could since I was 18; I respect our flag.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1331849766' post='2401427'] i think many people have a visceral reaction to disrespect of the flag because of family members or friends who have died, been maimed, or otherwise served their country with honor. i mean, i was [i]ticked off[/i] when i saw the flag being flown at night without illumination. [/quote] It's this visceral reaction that I find kind of academically interesting. I don't really feel much for any flag. They're symbols of a country, but it's not like the flag has feelings or something. I get the impression that some people treat their flag as if it actually were a relative or something. We can talk about the military side if you like. I get that people fight and are killed because they wanted to protect their country and their families. That's a good reason to fight. But they don't die for a piece of cloth. I'll put it this way: I understand entirely being respectful towards things that are just symbols. I just see the American flag in particular being somewhat anomalous. It often seems to me that respect for that particular symbol can be greater than what it would otherwise warrant. [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331850111' post='2401433'] Considering the history of the USA and Canada, I'm not surprised that we have more respect for our flag. As Lil Red said, we fought for it, died for it. (Now would be a good time point out that I am an immigrant that became a US citizen along with my parents in the 80s. I don't care. I have friends and family in the military; I have voted in every election that I could since I was 18; I respect our flag.) [/quote] What differing history between the US and Canada are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331850740' post='2401436'] What differing history between the US and Canada are you referring to? [/quote] I'm referring to the method of gaining independence from Great Britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331851014' post='2401438'] I'm referring to the method of gaining independence from Great Britain. [/quote] Interesting theory. Can you expand on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331850111' post='2401433'] Considering the history of the USA and Canada, I'm not surprised that we have more respect for our flag. As Lil Red said, we fought for it, died for it. (Now would be a good time point out that I am an immigrant that became a US citizen along with my parents in the 80s. I don't care. I have friends and family in the military; I have voted in every election that I could since I was 18; I respect our flag.) [/quote] I think part of the reason it's a big deal in our family is because my grandparents were immigrants, so the symbols of freedom mean a LOT. They came to the US after WWII, after my grandma and great-grandma had escaped a concentration camp, and my grandpa's family was leaving behind extreme poverty. My grandma still cries every year on the 4th of July when she talks about seeing the Statue of Liberty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331851068' post='2401440'] Interesting theory. Can you expand on that? [/quote] I think Canadians would have more respect for their flag if they had fought for independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331785325' post='2400975'] I'll be living in the US within about 2 years. [/quote] ------------------------------------------ [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331832828' post='2401229'] I mean offense. [/quote] It's not very becoming. In fact, I have lost a portion of what little respect I had for you with that comment. ---------------------------------- [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1331843907' post='2401370'] My mom was always on us to make sure we took proper care of our flag growing up. We didn't know the whole code or anything like that, but the basic rules of respect we knew from childhood. [/quote] Same here. I firmly believe every American child should have the same instruction, preferably in the home. --------------------------------------------------------- [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331846359' post='2401393'] As a non-American I find the whole flag code to be slightly odd. [/quote] Does your status as a non-American really have anything to do with it? Humor me here and think about that for a minute. If you were born in America, do you think you'd have a greater respect for your flag or any other flag? Before you allow your knee-jerk response to hit the phorum, consider this post: [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331847971' post='2401408'] And I ignore it even harder. ^_^ [/quote] ----------------------------- [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1331849530' post='2401422'] Yeah, my dad was a reservist but I really learned the most about respecting our flag from my Mom. Her dad was in the Air Force when he was in his 20s so that may have been part of it... not really sure. I would venture to say that most Americans have at least a modicum of respect for our flag which is why we try to avoid the cardinal grievances against it (flying upside down, laying it on the ground, publicly burning it in protest, etc.) Because, obviously, it's not about the government, it's about We The People. And the men and women who serve to protect us. Despite our differences there is a certain pride and unity involved. [/quote] Absolutely agreed. Well said, boozer. -------------------------------------------- [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331850111' post='2401433'] Considering the history of the USA and Canada, I'm not surprised that we have more respect for our flag. As Lil Red said, we fought for it, died for it. [/quote] Yes, my flag represents a great deal (as every American learns at some point in his or her life). I have a natural inclination toward strong attachment, but I think even without it, I would still feel very strongly about respect for the flag. (I do believe every citizen of every country should show respect to his or her flag.) ------------------------------ [quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1331851376' post='2401443'] I think part of the reason it's a big deal in our family is because my grandparents were immigrants, so the symbols of freedom mean a LOT. They came to the US after WWII, after my grandma and great-grandma had escaped a concentration camp, and my grandpa's family was leaving behind extreme poverty. My grandma still cries every year on the 4th of July when she talks about seeing the Statue of Liberty. [/quote] That made me tear up. Beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331851457' post='2401444'] I think Canadians would have more respect for their flag if they had fought for independence. [/quote] On the flip side, perhaps we might have more respect for our flag that we obtained peacefully and without killing anyone. ^_^ Iunno, your idea is compelling but I'm not 100% ready to accept it. [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331851815' post='2401447'] ------------------------------------------ It's not very becoming. In fact, I have lost a portion of what little respect I had for you with that comment. ---------------------------------- Same here. I firmly believe every American child should have the same instruction, preferably in the home. --------------------------------------------------------- Does your status as a non-American really have anything to do with it? Humor me here and think about that for a minute. If you were born in America, do you think you'd have a greater respect for your flag or any other flag? Before you allow your knee-jerk response to hit the phorum, consider this post: ----------------------------- Absolutely agreed. Well said, boozer. -------------------------------------------- Yes, my flag represents a great deal (as every American learns at some point in his or her life). I have a natural inclination toward strong attachment, but I think even without it, I would still feel very strongly about respect for the flag. (I do believe every citizen of every country should show respect to his or her flag.) ------------------------------ That made me tear up. Beautiful. [/quote] "It's not very becoming. In fact, I have lost a portion of what little respect I had for you with that comment." What, we can't make jokes about Obama? I really don't respect him, and a bit of levity is generally appreciated. "Does your status as a non-American really have anything to do with it? Humor me here and think about that for a minute. If you were born in America, do you think you'd have a greater respect for your flag or any other flag?" I thought it was pretty relevant, yeah. I'm assuming it's one of those things where you have to live it to understand. That's why I've tried to be pretty clear that I don't understand the subject, coming from an outsider position. I thought that was fairly reasonable. "Yes, my flag represents a great deal (as every American learns at some point in his or her life). I have a natural inclination toward strong attachment, but I think even without it, I would still feel very strongly about respect for the flag. (I do believe every citizen of every country should show respect to his or her flag.)" Like I said, I understand general respect to important symbols. I just perceive the American flag to be a bit anomalous as far as symbols go. In my experience Americans tend to treat their flag differently than any other symbol. Anomalies are interesting. I want to figure out how it works, hence my questioning. The assumption in this thread seems to be that I'm actively disrespecting the American flag. That's not really true. I'd like to understand how the whole idea works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1331851376' post='2401443'] I think part of the reason it's a big deal in our family is because my grandparents were immigrants, so the symbols of freedom mean a LOT. They came to the US after WWII, after my grandma and great-grandma had escaped a concentration camp, and my grandpa's family was leaving behind extreme poverty. My grandma still cries every year on the 4th of July when she talks about seeing the Statue of Liberty. [/quote] i cry every time i hear the Star Spangled Banner being sung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331852806' post='2401454'] On the flip side, perhaps we might have more respect for our flag that we obtained peacefully and without killing anyone. ^_^ Iunno, your idea is compelling but I'm not 100% ready to accept it. [/quote] You said that Americans have more respect for their flag than Canadians. People tend to have more respect for things that they fight for; I agree that a struggle without loss of life would be better. That's beside the point. Canada is a part of the British Commonwealth with Queen Elizabeth II as its monarch, its head of state. The USA fought for freedom from Great Britain. I believe this is why Americans respect the flag more than Canadians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331852806' post='2401454'] Like I said, I understand general respect to important symbols. I just perceive the American flag to be a bit anomalous as far as symbols go. In my experience Americans tend to treat their flag differently than any other symbol. Anomalies are interesting. I want to figure out how it works, hence my questioning. The assumption in this thread seems to be that I'm actively disrespecting the American flag. That's not really true. I'd like to understand how the whole idea works. [/quote] [b] I am the Flag[/b] [b] by Ruth Apperson Rous[/b] [color=#000000] [size="4"]I am the flag of the United States of America.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I was born on June 14, 1777, in Philadelphia.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]There the Continental Congress adopted my stars and stripes as the national flag.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]My thirteen stripes alternating red and white, with a union of thirteen white stars in a field of blue, represented a new constellation, a new nation dedicated to the personal and religious liberty of mankind.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Today fifty stars signal from my union, one for each of the fifty sovereign states in the greatest constitutional republic the world has ever known.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]My colors symbolize the patriotic ideals and spiritual qualities of the citizens of my country.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]My red stripes proclaim the fearless courage and integrity of American men and boys and the self-sacrifice and devotion of American mothers and daughters.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]My white stripes stand for liberty and equality for all.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]My blue is the blue of heaven, loyalty, and faith.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I represent these eternal principles: liberty, justice, and humanity.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I embody American freedom: freedom of speech, religion, assembly, the press, and the sanctity of the home.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I typify that indomitable spirit of determination brought to my land by Christopher Columbus and by all my forefathers - the Pilgrims, Puritans, settlers at James town and Plymouth.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I am as old as my nation.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I am a living symbol of my nation's law: the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I voice Abraham Lincoln's philosophy: "A government of the people, by the people,for the people."[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I stand guard over my nation's schools, the seedbed of good citizenship and true patriotism.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I am displayed in every schoolroom throughout my nation; every schoolyard has a flag pole for my display.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Daily thousands upon thousands of boys and girls pledge their allegiance to me and my country.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I have my own law—Public Law 829, "The Flag Code" - which definitely states my correct use and display for all occasions and situations.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I have my special day, Flag Day. June 14 is set aside to honor my birth.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Americans, I am the sacred emblem of your country. I symbolize your birthright, your heritage of liberty purchased with blood and sorrow.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I am your title deed of freedom, which is yours to enjoy and hold in trust for posterity.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]If you fail to keep this sacred trust inviolate, if I am nullified and destroyed, you and your children will become slaves to dictators and despots.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Eternal vigilance is your price of freedom.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]As you see me silhouetted against the peaceful skies of my country, remind yourself that I am the flag of your country, that I stand for what you are - no more, no less.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Guard me well, lest your freedom perish from the earth.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Dedicate your lives to those principles for which I stand: "One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I was created in freedom. I made my first appearance in a battle for human liberty.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]God grant that I may spend eternity in my "land of the free and the home of the brave" and that I shall ever be known as "Old Glory," the flag of the United States of America.[/size][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331852806' post='2401454'] On the flip side, perhaps we might have more respect for our flag that we obtained peacefully and without killing anyone. ^_^ Iunno, your idea is compelling but I'm not 100% ready to accept it. "It's not very becoming. In fact, I have lost a portion of what little respect I had for you with that comment." What, we can't make jokes about Obama? I really don't respect him, and a bit of levity is generally appreciated. "Does your status as a non-American really have anything to do with it? Humor me here and think about that for a minute. If you were born in America, do you think you'd have a greater respect for your flag or any other flag?" I thought it was pretty relevant, yeah. I'm assuming it's one of those things where you have to live it to understand. That's why I've tried to be pretty clear that I don't understand the subject, coming from an outsider position. I thought that was fairly reasonable. "Yes, my flag represents a great deal (as every American learns at some point in his or her life). I have a natural inclination toward strong attachment, but I think even without it, I would still feel very strongly about respect for the flag. (I do believe every citizen of every country should show respect to his or her flag.)" Like I said, I understand general respect to important symbols. I just perceive the American flag to be a bit anomalous as far as symbols go. In my experience Americans tend to treat their flag differently than any other symbol. Anomalies are interesting. I want to figure out how it works, hence my questioning. The assumption in this thread seems to be that I'm actively disrespecting the American flag. That's not really true. I'd like to understand how the whole idea works. [/quote] I am now away from a desktop computer but will respond later tonight if I am able. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331853582' post='2401460'] You said that Americans have more respect for their flag than Canadians. People tend to have more respect for things that they fight for; I agree that a struggle without loss of life would be better. That's beside the point. Canada is a part of the British Commonwealth with Queen Elizabeth II as its monarch, its head of state. The USA fought for freedom from Great Britain. I believe this is why Americans respect the flag more than Canadians. [/quote] We're part of the Commonwealth, but a sovereign nation in every respect. Anyway, that's also beside the point. Yeah, like I said that's a compelling explanation. Would you say that the revolutionary war is still "fresh in the mind" of the collective American psyche? [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331853653' post='2401461'] [b] I am the Flag[/b] [b] by Ruth Apperson Rous[/b] [color=#000000][size=4]I am the flag of the United States of America.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I was born on June 14, 1777, in Philadelphia.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]There the Continental Congress adopted my stars and stripes as the national flag.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]My thirteen stripes alternating red and white, with a union of thirteen white stars in a field of blue, represented a new constellation, a new nation dedicated to the personal and religious liberty of mankind.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Today fifty stars signal from my union, one for each of the fifty sovereign states in the greatest constitutional republic the world has ever known.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]My colors symbolize the patriotic ideals and spiritual qualities of the citizens of my country.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]My red stripes proclaim the fearless courage and integrity of American men and boys and the self-sacrifice and devotion of American mothers and daughters.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]My white stripes stand for liberty and equality for all.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]My blue is the blue of heaven, loyalty, and faith.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I represent these eternal principles: liberty, justice, and humanity.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I embody American freedom: freedom of speech, religion, assembly, the press, and the sanctity of the home.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I typify that indomitable spirit of determination brought to my land by Christopher Columbus and by all my forefathers - the Pilgrims, Puritans, settlers at James town and Plymouth.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I am as old as my nation.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I am a living symbol of my nation's law: the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I voice Abraham Lincoln's philosophy: "A government of the people, by the people,for the people."[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I stand guard over my nation's schools, the seedbed of good citizenship and true patriotism.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I am displayed in every schoolroom throughout my nation; every schoolyard has a flag pole for my display.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Daily thousands upon thousands of boys and girls pledge their allegiance to me and my country.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I have my own law—Public Law 829, "The Flag Code" - which definitely states my correct use and display for all occasions and situations.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I have my special day, Flag Day. June 14 is set aside to honor my birth.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Americans, I am the sacred emblem of your country. I symbolize your birthright, your heritage of liberty purchased with blood and sorrow.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I am your title deed of freedom, which is yours to enjoy and hold in trust for posterity.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]If you fail to keep this sacred trust inviolate, if I am nullified and destroyed, you and your children will become slaves to dictators and despots.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Eternal vigilance is your price of freedom.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]As you see me silhouetted against the peaceful skies of my country, remind yourself that I am the flag of your country, that I stand for what you are - no more, no less.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Guard me well, lest your freedom perish from the earth.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Dedicate your lives to those principles for which I stand: "One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I was created in freedom. I made my first appearance in a battle for human liberty.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]God grant that I may spend eternity in my "land of the free and the home of the brave" and that I shall ever be known as "Old Glory," the flag of the United States of America.[/size][/color] [/quote] Interesting. Very succinct. And so does that imply that when the state itself fails to uphold those ideals, that the flag as a symbol retains its original meaning? Or does the flag as a symbol take on new meanings as the nation it represents changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 The American flag flies on our public buildings and at our homes.Kids says the Pledge to it every day. It represents our ideals, our hopes and our dreams for this country. It represents every American who fought or died for this country. It represents freedom for every immigrant traveling here from all over the world. If you are traveling it represents home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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