My Thoughts On Galileo

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332507064' post='2406006']


I have not exaggerated the situation. Go and live amongst indigenous people and you will see for yourself. It is undeniable what the Catholic Church did to indigenous people. It's a historical fact like the Holocaust is a historical fact. You can still go to these places and see what the children were taught. If you think that being taught to hate yourself is a good thing, then you have serious issues and might be considered the perfect Catholic.

[/quote]


I meant exaggeration of the "priest rape children" accusation.
To be quite honest, I do not know of what situation you are referring to here. "Indigenous" can refer to a great, great many groups of people from all over the world. That is not very specific if you want me to go ask people. And lots of things are historical facts. It is a fact that the English Protestants mistreated the Acadians because they were French by blood, friends with the Native Americans (had intermarried with them in some cases) and were Catholic. The English made them prisoners of war even though they were legal citizens of England, forced them from their land, separated families, put them in squalid conditions so that half of them died, spread them across the East coast, wouldn't feed them or let them get jobs, took away their kids (the ones they happened to find) when they couldn't support them and made the kids slaves in English households, and once the war was over and there was no pretext to hold them anymore, made them pay their way out. Then, when the United States was established, the Acadians unfortunate enough to be living in it were told they were useless, worthless, their culture was stupid, their language not even real, and they were beaten with rulers in school if they spoke it. My grandmother could tell you all about that latter bit, and so I suppose she (and myself) have a reason to be personally angry over the entire history...but you won't ever catch her or myself preaching that England and the United States are evil. And I don't suppose you would on my behalf, either.

Do you see where I am going with this?





[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332507064' post='2406006']

If you re-read what I'd wrote, you'd see that I did cite specific sources. And no they weren't anti-catholic propaganda cites. I'd gave the name of the documents that suspended Galileo's works, that mentions the charges, etc. However nobody here that believes the Catholic Church was right, has yet to cite a single source. Perhaps you should stop being so hypocritical and cite credible sources, rather then CAtholic Propaganda.

[/quote]



Looked up and down this thread, didn't find any. Perhaps I am going blind, though....


[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332507064' post='2406006']
And that's pretty sad since the reason given to Native Americans being forced to send their Children to Catholic schools was they were immoral people. Perhaps raping children isn't immoral in the Catholic Church.

It is true, take a look at the number of children raped and molested by the Catholic Church in every country... it's a large number of children.
[/quote]

No, it is not true. There is that exaggerated view again. Go read "Anti-Catholicism" by Philip Jenkins.

Everyone is immoral and sinful, and the Church tells everybody that.

What's sad is the reason the Native Americans were murdered and their land stolen by the Unites States; it was because the citizens of the US actually thought the Natives were inferior human beings (like the unborn) and they wanted their land. That's sad. ....I suppose you think the United States is evil?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Tally Marx

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1332509205' post='2406015']
Okay - this is ridiculous. You've been told repeatedly that it is not the Catholic Church, but its members, that are committing these crimes. Maybe you feel that the Catholic Church is responsible somehow, or morally complicit with her teachings, but that doesn't mean that the Catholic Church is doing anything. Even if that were true, it would mean that "people within the Church commit terrible crimes, but the teachings of the Catholic Church are to blame." So I ask you to correct your post or offer an apology.[/quote]

I offer an apology? I'm glad that you have such a victim mentality but I'm not going to offer and apology. What is ridiculous is the fact that millions of indigenous children from North America, to Australia, to Asia were abused in institutionalized Roman Catholic Schools and you think that I should be the one to apologize? The fact of the matter is that it's ridiculous to say that the Patriarchs of the Roman Catholic Church were "unaware" of this sort of abuse. That is scapegoating the lower level priests and nuns to say that they acted on their own behalf, when the fact is that it was institutionalized. Therefore maybe it's you that should offer and apology to the victims but seeing your low moral standards, I won't hold my breathe.

[quote]Basically, what you're saying (besides being incredibly offensive) is that either 1. A building that you see as the Church is physically raping children (I don't think that's what you mean), or 2. About a billion people within the Church (as well as many people who are already dead) are all, at the same time, raping individual children. Have you ever been raped by a billion people (and a bunch of ghosts) at the same time?[/quote]

What is more offensive? Asking that the very institution that abused children be held accountable or those who hold you accountable? I'd say that raping, molesting, and beating children on a global level is the most offensive and I will say that I'm a bit surprised that you wouldn't agree.

1.) The raping, molesting and beating of children happened within the institutions owned and operated by the Roman Catholic Church. IE: Catholic Schools located on land owned and operated by the Roman Catholic Church by Roman Catholic personel. So to say "that isn't the Roman Catholic Church" is like saying that Charles Mason isn't responsible for the death of Sharon Tate.

2.) Your argument is a straw man argument. Nobody said "all Roman Catholics" but what we did say is that the Roman Catholic Church supported such behavior with material support, financial support, buildings, land, etc. And that they did nothing to stop it. When Indigenous Children were being taught that their language of that of pagans and were beaten if they ever their native language. That was not something that happened at one particular Catholic Church, School or Institution. That is something that was massively imposed upon native american children from North America to Australia to Asia.

[quote]As I already explained, we believe the Catholic Church IS the Mystical Body of Christ. So, when you say that the Catholic Church is raping children, that's like telling us that Christ is raping children - and that's where it's offensive.[/quote] I don't care if you believe in fairies. When it comes to holding people accountable for their actions, the Catholic Church is as much a physical entity, as it is your belief fairies and fairy dust.

[quote]Clearly neither case above is true, so again I ask you to amend your statement or offer an apology - or leave.
[/quote] And I ask you to stop giving your support to rapists. However neither of us is willing to accept the other's opinion, so why don't you leave if you're so offended?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1332523279' post='2406204']
I meant exaggeration of the "priest rape children" accusation.[/quote] There was no exaggeration. Just look at the figures. It's you that has exaggerated the situation by acting as if it was a few rogue priests, when in reality it was priests and even high level Bishops from nearly every country in the world.

[quote]To be quite honest, I do not know of what situation you are referring to here. "Indigenous" can refer to a great, great many groups of people from all over the world. That is not very specific if you want me to go ask people.[/quote]

Indigenous people such as Native Americans, Aboriginees, etc. are defined according to the United Nations, so I don't think it's so difficult for you to figure out if you truly wanted to but being that you're hell bent on denying the attrocities that happened to them and acknowledging that they were institutionally linked, I'm not surprised by your denial of the term altogether.

[quote]And lots of things are historical facts. It is a fact that the English Protestants mistreated the Acadians because they were French by blood, friends with the Native Americans (had intermarried with them in some cases) and were Catholic. The English made them prisoners of war even though they were legal citizens of England, forced them from their land, separated families, put them in squalid conditions so that half of them died, spread them across the East coast, wouldn't feed them or let them get jobs, took away their kids (the ones they happened to find) when they couldn't support them and made the kids slaves in English households, and once the war was over and there was no pretext to hold them anymore, made them pay their way out. Then, when the United States was established, the Acadians unfortunate enough to be living in it were told they were useless, worthless, their culture was stupid, their language not even real, and they were beaten with rulers in school if they spoke it. My grandmother could tell you all about that latter bit, and so I suppose she (and myself) have a reason to be personally angry over the entire history...but you won't ever catch her or myself preaching that England and the United States are evil. And I don't suppose you would on my behalf, either.[/quote]

Sorry but this is completely different. First and foremost Catholic mothers were never told that they had to send their children to Protestant schools or they would have their babies snatched from their arms but indigenous mothers were told that if they didn't send their children to Roman Catholic schools, they would have had their children snatched from their arms. Second, your children were not forced to go to schools that raped, molested and beat them, which resulted in many dying.

[quote]Do you see where I am going with this?[/quote] Sure it's a strawman argument as usual.

[quote]Looked up and down this thread, didn't find any. Perhaps I am going blind, though....[/quote] Perhaps you are, or it was written in the other thread, where this discussion originated, "Interview With Vatican Astronomer". Search of it.

[quote]No, it is not true. There is that exaggerated view again. Go read "Anti-Catholicism" by Philip Jenkins.[/quote]

It is true and nor you or your propaganda source will ever erase that fact.

[quote]Everyone is immoral and sinful, and the Church tells everybody that.[/quote] Great cop out for raping children isn't it? However it wasn't just rape, it was also daily beatings.

[quote]What's sad is the reason the Native Americans were murdered and their land stolen by the Unites States; it was because the citizens of the US actually thought the Natives were inferior human beings (like the unborn) and they wanted their land. That's sad. ....I suppose you think the United States is evil?
[/quote]

I believe that the United States government was bad. Most definately but so is the Roman Catholic Church that was part of that institution. Raping, molesting, beating and often killing children is bad... what about that don't you understand? Or are you under the impression that it's good?

[fides' Jack]

Not arguing any more...

Edited March 23, 2012 by fides' Jack

[fides' Jack]

Not arguing any more.

Edited March 23, 2012 by fides' Jack

[fides' Jack]

No - forget it. I really don't want to argue with you anymore. It won't do any good. You're not being reasonable, and you've proven yourself too immature to respond with anything but bias, [i]propaganda[/i], and maliciousness.

[Seven77]

Reza, you're my homeboy and everything, but to be honest I'm a little confused as to what your point is. All of the heinous and unspeakable attacks that have been perpetrated upon so many people are very bad indeed. Of course there were some bishops who were guilty of covering up wrongdoing. Yes there can be no denying of this. Look, as a Catholic I consider the Roman Catholic Catholic Church to be among the other Catholic churches that make up the [b]mystical body of Christ. [/b]What affects some of the members affect the whole body. The sexual abuse crisis affects every Catholic in some way or another. It truly hurts. Are you saying corruption within the Catholic church should never have happened? If so, most if not all of us here are on total agreement with you!!! What should we do-- what should I do? What is your point?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1332536961' post='2406538']
No - forget it. I really don't want to argue with you anymore. It won't do any good. You're not being reasonable, and you've proven yourself too immature to respond with anything but bias, [i]propaganda[/i], and maliciousness.
[/quote]

No I'm being rational and logical. If we were talking about Muslims, you would say that it's a reflection on all Muslims as we have witnessed on this message board throughout the past decade. You wouldn't say "Islam is a mystical body and therefore whatever takes place in it's name isn't reflectant upon it as a religion" of course you wouldn't. You'd blame the religion and insist that this is what the religion teaches. Even if it's not supported with doctrine but one cleric's opinion. Whenever something bad happens at the hands of Muslims, this message board is filled with people blaming the religion of Islam. And unlike the Roman Catholic Church, Islam is not one organization or entity.

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1332537292' post='2406547']
Reza, you're my homeboy and everything, but to be honest I'm a little confused as to what your point is. All of the heinous and unspeakable attacks that have been perpetrated upon so many people are very bad indeed. Of course there were some bishops who were guilty of covering up wrongdoing. Yes there can be no denying of this. Look, as a Catholic I consider the Roman Catholic Catholic Church to be among the other Catholic churches that make up the [b]mystical body of Christ. [/b]What affects some of the members affect the whole body. The sexual abuse crisis affects every Catholic in some way or another. It truly hurts. Are you saying corruption within the Catholic church should never have happened? If so, most if not all of us here are on total agreement with you!!! What should we do-- what should I do? What is your point?
[/quote]

Well the problem is that you think it's "some bishops", as if it was a few select bishops but wasn't. It was a large number of Bishops if you count from the time that the attrocities against Indigenous people began, till this very point that we're at now. If we use your definition of "mystical body of Christ", then there is no problem. However I never implicated everyone that makes up "the mystical body of Christ". I specifically mentioned the institutional entity involved in the abuse. Which happens to be the Roman Catholic Church and the organizatioins established and funded by it.

What should you do? Admit that indigenous children were systematically raped, molested, tortured and killed by a large number of individuals within the Roman Catholic Church and it's affiliates. It's not a difficult task to admit that much because you know it to be true. It wasn't just one school at the Arapaho Tribe. It affected nearly all indigenous people from North American to Austrailia and Asia. When it's this widespread it's not just "some bishops" or "a few schools". At that point it's systematic by nature.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332541121' post='2406612']
No I'm being rational and logical. If we were talking about Muslims, you would say that it's a reflection on all Muslims as we have witnessed on this message board throughout the past decade. You wouldn't say "Islam is a mystical body and therefore whatever takes place in it's name isn't reflectant upon it as a religion" of course you wouldn't. You'd blame the religion and insist that this is what the religion teaches. Even if it's not supported with doctrine but one cleric's opinion. Whenever something bad happens at the hands of Muslims, this message board is filled with people blaming the religion of Islam. And unlike the Roman Catholic Church, Islam is not one organization or entity.
[/quote]

Funny you should say that. A little earlier I was thinking about the same analogy. Specifically, I was thinking about the 9/11 attacks. I thought, "What if the tables were turned? How do I think about Islam?" And, actually, I don't think the Islamic religion is to blame for the 9/11 attacks. So, you're wrong. And thanks for judging me based on what you've seen from other people. But then again, you seem to do that a lot - lay blame where it's not due.

I will say that all the hype lately about terrorism has made me uncertain about Muslims in general, but I really don't have a set opinion about the religion, other than I believe it is a false religion (because I'm Catholic and there can be only one true religion).

Is that what this is about? A problem with this forum? I thought it was about the Catholic Church specifically, but from this it appears that your real beef is with the people here, and not the Church. In that case, I understand you a little more.

So what are you looking for? Someone to admit something? Sure, I'll admit it - the organization that makes up the earthly portion of the Church Militant is definitely flawed, and has made some terrible mistakes and committed some terrible crimes. Happy now?

[fides' Jack]

Wait, I see it now, "Admit that indigenous children were systematically raped, molested, tortured and killed by a large number of individuals within the Roman Catholic Church and it's affiliates." Sure. Admitted.

Individuals within the Roman Catholic Church have done some crazy awful things.

[Seven77]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332541121' post='2406612']

What should you do? Admit that indigenous children were systematically raped, molested, tortured and killed by a large number of individuals within the Roman Catholic Church and it's affiliates. It's not a difficult task to admit that much because you know it to be true. It wasn't just one school at the Arapaho Tribe. It affected nearly all indigenous people from North American to Austrailia and Asia.
[/quote]

Admitted.

Such crimes were the cause of the more serious sufferings of Our Lord in Gethsemane. We should meditate upon this suffering and pray for healing.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1332548143' post='2406692']
Funny you should say that. A little earlier I was thinking about the same analogy. Specifically, I was thinking about the 9/11 attacks. I thought, "What if the tables were turned? How do I think about Islam?" And, actually, I don't think the Islamic religion is to blame for the 9/11 attacks. So, you're wrong. And thanks for judging me based on what you've seen from other people. But then again, you seem to do that a lot - lay blame where it's not due.[/quote]

First off, I don't see you telling a single person here who blames all Muslims and Islam for the 9/11 attacks that they are wrong. So please stop being so hypocritical and only getting offended when it applies to you. Second, there is no one person who speaks for Islam. They don't have a pope, neither do they have Bishops. The closest they get to such clergy is Imams, and scholars, who usually have a difference of opinion, if you take the time to read Islamic commentary. Islamic intellectual, Reza Aslan put it like this, "There is no one interpretation of Islam. It's perhaps the most ethnically, socially and culturally diverse religion in the history of the world".

Now a proper equivilent would be and a number of Islamic mosques under one Islamic system if you would. And just your luck there is that equivilent. Reciently in Pakistan there were some rape alligations in various mosques that were under the guidence of one Islamic system. Young boys were raped by the Imams and those in charge of the organization knew about it but did nothing. This is equivilent to the Roman Catholic Church.

What was the public's response? Well as usual, the religious individuals that hid it or were linked to these mosques, either denied it, blame the victims or blame everyone else. Not unlike the Roman Catholic response as you have demonstrated today and is demonstrated in this video:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMnAmRa4NYw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMnAmRa4NYw[/url]

[quote]I will say that all the hype lately about terrorism has made me uncertain about Muslims in general, but I really don't have a set opinion about the religion, other than I believe it is a false religion (because I'm Catholic and there can be only one true religion).[/quote]

Well I don't see you defending Muslims whenever a radical cleric makes a bad statement and all Muslims or the religion of Islam is blamed. What statement are you making? That as long as it's not your religion, you don't care...

[quote]Is that what this is about? A problem with this forum? I thought it was about the Catholic Church specifically, but from this it appears that your real beef is with the people here, and not the Church. In that case, I understand you a little more.[/quote]

No that's not what this is about. It has nothing to do with judging all Roman Catholics based upon the more then not, bad behavior of the people on this forum. It is about the Roman Catholic Church specifically. Just read my comments. 1.) Abuse of Indigenous people. 2.) Treatment of Galileo. 3.) The mass murder of Copts, by the Crusades under the false pretense that they are monophysites. And the list goes on. If it was just about these people, the arguments would be emotionally charged without evidence. However they are the opposite. That's why I'm able to give specifics.

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1332551941' post='2406731']
Admitted.

Such crimes were the cause of the more serious sufferings of Our Lord in Gethsemane. We should meditate upon this suffering and pray for healing.
[/quote]

Well if you take that comment in it's full context. It wasn't just individuals, it was systematic. Please show me such systematic abuse within the Coptic Church and I will stop being Coptic tomorrow.

[Seven77]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332553714' post='2406770']
Please show me such systematic abuse within the Coptic Church and I will stop being Coptic tomorrow.
[/quote]

You're mistaken to think abuse is reason to leave a Church, Roman or Coptic.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332535064' post='2406497']
There was no exaggeration. Just look at the figures. It's you that has exaggerated the situation by acting as if it was a few rogue priests, when in reality it was priests and even high level Bishops from nearly every country in the world.
[/quote]

I have looked at the figures. In the United States, there's a lower rate of priest-to-child molestation than there is teacher-to-child. What figures have you been looking at? Just anti-Catholic propaganda?


[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332535064' post='2406497']
Indigenous people such as Native Americans, Aboriginees, etc. are defined according to the United Nations, so I don't think it's so difficult for you to figure out if you truly wanted to but being that you're hell bent on denying the attrocities that happened to them and acknowledging that they were institutionally linked, I'm not surprised by your denial of the term altogether.
[/quote]

Never denied anything. I said you were very vague. And you are.



[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332535064' post='2406497']
Sorry but this is completely different.
[/quote]

Did you *read* what I wrote?


[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332535064' post='2406497']
First and foremost Catholic mothers were never told that they had to send their children to Protestant schools or they would have their babies snatched from their arms but indigenous mothers were told that if they didn't send their children to Roman Catholic schools, they would have had their children snatched from their arms.
[/quote]

Well...Catholics weren't allowed to send their kids to Catholic schools in or out of the country at one point in the US (or did you skip that point in history?) and they went to jail (at the least) if they tried...
But that wasn't the people or time period I was speaking of. The *Acadians* weren't given a choice of school, or anything. Their guns were taken from them, they were rounded up, separated, enslaved, murdered, etc. with no option or word. It was simply done to them. Are you seriously trying to say that's a lesser crime?


[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332535064' post='2406497']
Second, your children were not forced to go to schools that raped, molested and beat them, which resulted in many dying.
[/quote]

Excuse me? Did you *read* what I wrote?
The Acadian/Cajun children *were* beaten, for speaking French. Public school teachers rape/molest kids all the time. Many Acadians did die from the abuses done them in their history.

At first, you seemed to generally sympathize with and be rightously angry with the indigenous people you have heard of. But, now that you are downplaying the terrible things done to the people I speak of, just because they are Catholic and I used them in my example, I see you are not actually a good, sympathetic person. You are on a crusade against the Church and these poor people you are using is just a means to an end. You should be ashamed.

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332535064' post='2406497']
Sure it's a strawman argument as usual.
[/quote]

Really? I thought it was a really good argument.
I mean, it only logically follows that, if you can condemn the entire Church for what priests did to indigenous, then I can condemn all of England--government and people--for what they did, right? Surely they all, every last one of them, had a hand in it. The King knew what Governor Charles Lawrence was doing. So, the King, Parliament, and every English citizen past, present and future are unjust. England and the English are evil.

My argument is that you cannot condemn everyone in a group for something that only part of them did. Especially when you don't know how large a part (and you, despite your assertions, don't) did it.


[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332535064' post='2406497']
It is true and nor you or your propaganda source will ever erase that fact.
[/quote]

^Does anyone else find it amusing how he calls every statement and source that opposes his assertions "propaganda"? As if calling it that magically discredits it?


[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332535064' post='2406497']
I believe that the United States government was bad. Most definately but so is the Roman Catholic Church that was part of that institution. Raping, molesting, beating and often killing children is bad... what about that don't you understand? Or are you under the impression that it's good?
[/quote]

No, according to your logic, is *was* not bad. It *is* bad. Evil. Unjust. And not just the US government, but every government official personally, and every single citizen which makes up that nation.

Yes, bad things happened in the Church, done by h members. And they were undoubtedly bad. But my point remains--to condemn an entire institution for what some of its members did is unfair. To say that they are all evil because of what some did is incorrect. To ignore **every good thing** that an institution ever did so that you can wholly condemn it for every wrong thing it ever did is deceitful. To use the plight of people as an excuse for your deceitful crusade is shameful, as is ignoring the plight of people who don't serve your purpose.

You are unfair, incorrect, deceitful, and should be ashamed.

That's my point.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1332554799' post='2406790']


You're mistaken to think abuse is reason to leave a Church, Roman or Coptic.
[/quote]

^This, right here.

We could wax eloquent on all the wrongs the Church had done and had done to her, and argue over how many wrongs nullify the good, or how much good renders irrelevant the bad, etc. etc.
My last post sort of makes it sound like that is what we should do. And while taking into account both good and bad things the Church has done is only fair...it is also pointless.

The Church teaches good. The doctrines are in themselves good. That remains true no matter how many Catholics fail at obeying and living them. The failure of others is not an excuse for us to fail. "Do as they say, not as they do" is what Jesus said.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Tally Marx