My Thoughts On Galileo

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332163695' post='2403818']
Who's revisionist? You are... you're the one repeatedly contradicting history. Like when you said that the Catholic Church had nothing against Galileo's writings, which is blantantly false. The historical documents all prove that they suspended their printing until they would be re-written to favor the Roman Catholic version of science, which was false. Your problem is that you can never admit when the Catholic Church is injust, which is most of the time.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church is unjust most of the time?

I have to ask, do you mean that in its 2000 year history, the majority of that time, the Catholic Church has been unjust in general? How so? Please account for at least the majority of the Catholic Church's history (more than 1000 years' worth of unjustness).

[Seven77]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332163695' post='2403818']
Who's revisionist? You are... you're the one repeatedly contradicting history. Like when you said that the Catholic Church had nothing against Galileo's writings, which is blantantly false. The historical documents all prove that they suspended their printing until they would be re-written to favor the Roman Catholic version of science, which was false. Your problem is that you can never admit when the Catholic Church is injust, which is most of the time.
[/quote]

Reza,

The way I understand the situation is this: Galileo was not condemned for his science; rather, he was condemned for his faulty interpretation of Scripture contained in his writings. The writings were suspended because he attempted a revision of Scripture in the Book of Joshua. Galileo's case was that of a scientist trying to be a theologian and I believe that there is sufficient evidence to back it up. I'll be back with some references. In the meantime, this may help:

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0033.html
(note: I've only skimmed it as of two minutes ago)

Edited March 19, 2012 by Seven77

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1332174943' post='2403918']
Reza,

The way I understand the situation is this: Galileo was not condemned for his science; rather, he was condemned for his faulty interpretation of Scripture contained in his writings. The writings were suspended because he attempted a revision of Scripture in the Book of Joshua. Galileo's case was that of a scientist trying to be a theologian and I believe that there is sufficient evidence to back it up. I'll be back with some references. In the meantime, this may help:

[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0033.html"]http://catholiceduca...nce/sc0033.html[/url]
(note: I've only skimmed it as of two minutes ago)
[/quote]

Well that's the Roman Catholic defense is, but it is unsustained. We have zero historical documents that give evidence that he attempted to edit scripture. However we have a substantial amount that says he was persecuted because of science.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1332170748' post='2403885']
The Catholic Church is unjust most of the time?

I have to ask, do you mean that in its 2000 year history, the majority of that time, the Catholic Church has been unjust in general? How so? Please account for at least the majority of the Catholic Church's history (more than 1000 years' worth of unjustness).
[/quote]

Yes, I do mean that. I'll give you three examples amongst the thousands:

1.) What the Roman Catholic Church did to Oriental Orthodox during the Crusades
2.) What the Roman Catholic Church did to indigenous people globally, including native americans, native asians, and aboringees.
3.) What the Roman Catholic did to thousands, if not millions of children globally with fostering an atmosphere of rape.

Note: A child is more likely to get raped by a Catholic Priest then be abducted by a stranger.

[Seven77]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332207400' post='2404264']
Yes, I do mean that. I'll give you three examples amongst the thousands:

1.) What the Roman Catholic Church did to Oriental Orthodox during the Crusades
2.) What the Roman Catholic Church did to indigenous people globally, including native americans, native asians, and aboringees.
3.) What the Roman Catholic did to thousands, if not millions of children globally with fostering an atmosphere of rape.

Note: A child is more likely to get raped by a Catholic Priest then be abducted by a stranger.
[/quote]

Fides will probably offer a much better response but on all three points it is not the Roman Catholic Church--- it is certain Roman Catholics (Including clergy) who have committed these crimes and when they commit these crimes there are going against the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. We should definitely be hating on these inhumanities so you are definitely right to object, but please object correctly.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332207400' post='2404264']


Note: A child is more likely to get raped by a Catholic Priest then be abducted by a stranger.
[/quote]

TV shows not withstanding VERY few kids are ever abducted unless its a custody battle.
A child is more likely to get raped by anybody other than a Catholic priest, starting with the parents, brothers, cousins and uncles, mum's new boyfriend, the next door neighbor,the janitor at school, the boy scout leader, the sports coach etc.

[Seven77]

Copernicus, a Polish priest and scientist, dedicated his work on heliocentrism to Pope Paul III. The work was generally thought of as a mere theory of planetary motion without implications beyond astronomy. After Copernicus there was still serious arguments for geo-centrism which most people accepted as reality. Galileo wanted to take Copernicus to the next level and wanted the Church to recognize heliocentrism, what was thought of as a theory, as a truth.

(The Church however does not, and does not have the authority, to pronounce scientific declarations as if they were dogmas and doctrines to be believed on faith. It’s important to remember that fact.)

Galileo’s push for heliocentrism started over stepping and insulting certain Church officials who originally had no problem with Galileo and his science. Galileo seemed to exhibit a certain kind of arrogance about his science that he had yet to prove. He could not demonstrate any shift in stellar parallaxes: if the earth revolves around the sun, wouldn’t that affect the positions of the stars? Galileo could not demonstrate this when asked to prove his theory.

Galileo also made the mistake to attempt to teach a method of scriptural interpretation that unfortunately many Catholics were wary of… Galileo said that Scripture is not always to be interpreted with a literal interpretation. So, he stepped on the toes of theologians who didn’t take his theological views to kindly.

It should also be noted that Pope Urban VIII gave permission to Galileo to publish his writings as long as he did not advocate his views, just present his findings and observations. Unfortunately, Galileo made the mistake of making fun of the Pope in his writing. Obviously there were mutual errors in the handling of the controversy but Galileo was not condemned for his science (in its essence the Church cannot even condemn scientific findings by themselves). At the same time, some of his science got unjustly implicated in the whole process--unfortunately.(And it is on this point that Pope John Paul II apologized for the way the case was handled. Also on this occasion the Pope reaffirmed that there is no contradiction between faith and science.)

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1332211743' post='2404317']
Copernicus, a Polish priest and scientist, dedicated his work on heliocentrism to Pope Paul III. The work was generally thought of as a mere theory of planetary motion without implications beyond astronomy. After Copernicus there was still serious arguments for geo-centrism which most people accepted as reality. Galileo wanted to take Copernicus to the next level and wanted the Church to recognize heliocentrism, what was thought of as a theory, as a truth.[/quote] Please provide citation outside of Church propaganda.

[quote](The Church however does not, and does not have the authority, to pronounce scientific declarations as if they were dogmas and doctrines to be believed on faith. It’s important to remember that fact.)

Galileo’s push for heliocentrism started over stepping and insulting certain Church officials who originally had no problem with Galileo and his science. Galileo seemed to exhibit a certain kind of arrogance about his science that he had yet to prove. He could not demonstrate any shift in stellar parallaxes: if the earth revolves around the sun, wouldn’t that affect the positions of the stars? Galileo could not demonstrate this when asked to prove his theory.[/quote] Again provide citation outside of Church propaganda.

[quote]Galileo also made the mistake to attempt to teach a method of scriptural interpretation that unfortunately many Catholics were wary of… Galileo said that Scripture is not always to be interpreted with a literal interpretation. So, he stepped on the toes of theologians who didn’t take his theological views to kindly.

It should also be noted that Pope Urban VIII gave permission to Galileo to publish his writings as long as he did not advocate his views, just present his findings and observations. Unfortunately, Galileo made the mistake of making fun of the Pope in his writing. Obviously there were mutual errors in the handling of the controversy but Galileo was not condemned for his science (in its essence the Church cannot even condemn scientific findings by themselves). At the same time, some of his science got unjustly implicated in the whole process--unfortunately.(And it is on this point that Pope John Paul II apologized for the way the case was handled. Also on this occasion the Pope reaffirmed that there is no contradiction between faith and science.)
[/quote] Again citatioin please. If you cannot produce it, then we have to take this as nothing more then propaganda.



[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1332211684' post='2404316']
TV shows not withstanding VERY few kids are ever abducted unless its a custody battle.
A child is more likely to get raped by anybody other than a Catholic priest, starting with the parents, brothers, cousins and uncles, mum's new boyfriend, the next door neighbor,the janitor at school, the boy scout leader, the sports coach etc.
[/quote]

That's your justification? So moral...

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1332209520' post='2404298']
Fides will probably offer a much better response but on all three points it is not the Roman Catholic Church--- it is certain Roman Catholics (Including clergy) who have committed these crimes and when they commit these crimes there are going against the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. We should definitely be hating on these inhumanities so you are definitely right to object, but please object correctly.
[/quote]

Well you say that they are going against the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church but I find that to be a bit disingenous to be honest. I will break it down further for you. Native American mothers were told either send your child to a Catholic School or have their child taken from them. In that Catholic School the children were not allowed to use their native language, were told that it was to save them from the "blackness" and were physically assaulted. This wasn't just done to indigenous children in the United States but amongst all indigenous groups, including Aboringees. It was so widespread that there is no way that the Pope and his Bishops DID NOT KNOW ABOUT IT. And yet this Patriarch that claims to talk to G-d and have infallible doctrine, never heard his G-d telling him that this is wrong. Even after indigenous children were so dishonored that they began committing suicide at a rapid rate.

I believe in G-d. I know his charector and that is completely out of his charector so I do not believe it.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332207400' post='2404264']


Yes, I do mean that. I'll give you three examples amongst the thousands:

1.) What the Roman Catholic Church did to Oriental Orthodox during the Crusades
2.) What the Roman Catholic Church did to indigenous people globally, including native americans, native asians, and aboringees.
3.) What the Roman Catholic did to thousands, if not millions of children globally with fostering an atmosphere of rape.

Note: A child is more likely to get raped by a Catholic Priest then be abducted by a stranger.
[/quote]

1&2) don't confuse people who are Catholic, with the Catholic Church herself. That would sort of be like saying that America is corrupt, unfair, and unjust all the time because Mr. So-and-So and General Blah murdered and deported thousands of innocent Native Americans just because they wanted their land.

3) Same as for 1&2. But you seem to have a very exaggerated and biased view of the situation. Thousands and millions? I think it would do you some good to read Philip Jenkin's "Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice" (Jenkins isn't Catholic, so you can lay aside your conspiracy theory suspicions about propaganda).

Edited March 20, 2012 by Tally Marx

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332234541' post='2404386']

Please provide citation outside of Church propaganda.

Well you say that they are going against the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church but I find that to be a bit disingenous to be honest. I will break it down further for you. Native American mothers were told either send your child to a Catholic School or have their child taken from them. In that Catholic School the children were not allowed to use their native language, were told that it was to save them from the "blackness" and were physically assaulted. This wasn't just done to indigenous children in the United States but amongst all indigenous groups, including Aboringees. It was so widespread that there is no way that the Pope and his Bishops DID NOT KNOW ABOUT IT. And yet this Patriarch that claims to talk to G-d and have infallible doctrine, never heard his G-d telling him that this is wrong. Even after indigenous children were so dishonored that they began committing suicide at a rapid rate.

I believe in G-d. I know his charector and that is completely out of his charector so I do not believe it.
[/quote]

Citation please. And not from an anti-Catholic source. How about nothing that disagrees with my personal belief of the matter, just to make sure it's not anti-Catholic propaganda?

Sarcasm aside...
The Catholic Church teaches infallibly on matter of faith and morals. She never declared, "Thou shalt rape children and cause them to commit suicide.". In fact, the Church teaches quite the opposite, so I don't see how you can say anyone thought it *wasn't* wrong. How it was handled may be another matter, but the Church never taught such things are not wrong.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Tally Marx

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1332209520' post='2404298']
Fides will probably offer a much better response but on all three points it is not the Roman Catholic Church--- it is certain Roman Catholics (Including clergy) who have committed these crimes and when they commit these crimes there are going against the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. We should definitely be hating on these inhumanities so you are definitely right to object, but please object correctly.
[/quote]

Call me jack. No, I can't offer a better response. It's clear here that nobody is going to be swayed in opinion. In all honesty, I've been asked to provide sources for what I've said, and I could, but I really don't have the time or energy to spend doing so. In that respect, I've already failed the argument, by not providing what is necessary to continue.

It doesn't matter, though. As I said, nobody is going to change their minds on this - either on our side or theirs. Not that it isn't worth some discussion; I've taken a few things away from this thread.

Even so, I titled this "My Thoughts...". I'm not a historian, and will never be one. I have done research on Galileo, but not enough to make me any sort of expert. I'm sure I don't have all the facts, as I'm sure that Reza doesn't have all the facts. Reza has some good points; I'm sure it's hard to take the Catholic Church seriously when it seems that Her actions are sometimes immoral. At least, when you see Her from the outside. Of course we know that the Church is not to blame for the actions of Her people, just as God isn't to blame for the 9/11 attacks, but without being inside the Church, I'm sure that's a blurry line, if you can see that line at all.

Reza, from a different perspective, I think I agree with you about the Church's history - throughout, people within the Church have performed immoral actions. I was defensive about this, because I was thinking of those immoral actions being serious immoral actions, such as during the Crusades and other times like that. Truthfully, it could probably be said that during every moment since the Church's existence, Her members have committed sin of some kind or another. There have been times that were worse and times that were better. Catholics, by definition of doctrine, view the Catholic Church not as an earthly organization, but as the Mystical Body of Christ. Of course, by our beliefs, since Christ is God and the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, He cannot sin. Therefore, the Church Herself cannot sin. Therefore, it is the members of the Church, and not the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ, who sin.

It has been pointed out that many of the sins of members of the Catholic Church are shared with the rest of the world, also - such as raping and molesting children, murdering and worse during so-called "Holy Wars", etc.... If all of history is to be taken into account, then you must also remember those times that the Catholic Church specifically was persecuted just as harshly as Her members have persecuted others. In the end, those kinds of acts all boil down to human nature. In fact, all major religions have violent pasts.

Logically speaking, it remains to be said that the actions of the followers of any religion have no bearing on the truth of their beliefs.

I recognize that in order for any religion in this world to ever be the true religion, it must be accepted that mistakes will be made. In order to establish religion, God MUST rely on imperfect humans to run it for him, at least to some extent.

I was born and raised Catholic. I will die Catholic. I believe wholeheartedly in the Catholic Church as the true Church of Christ. Nothing will ever change that.

[cmotherofpirl]

[color=#282828][size=3][b]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=2404316"][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_images/phatmass/snapback.png[/img][/url]cmotherofpirl, on 19 March 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:[/b][/size][/color][color=#282828][size=3]

TV shows not withstanding VERY few kids are ever abducted unless its a custody battle.
A child is more likely to get raped by anybody other than a Catholic priest, starting with the parents, brothers, cousins and uncles, mum's new boyfriend, the next door neighbor,the janitor at school, the boy scout leader, the sports coach etc.[/size][/color]

[color=#282828]That's your justification? So moral...[/color]

[color=#0000ff]Nobody EVER claimed it was moral, but you insinuate that its frequent, and that is simply not true. [/color]

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1332267444' post='2404513']
1&2) don't confuse people who are Catholic, with the Catholic Church herself. That would sort of be like saying that America is corrupt, unfair, and unjust all the time because Mr. So-and-So and General Blah murdered and deported thousands of innocent Native Americans just because they wanted their land.

3) Same as for 1&2. But you seem to have a very exaggerated and biased view of the situation. Thousands and millions? I think it would do you some good to read Philip Jenkin's "Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice" (Jenkins isn't Catholic, so you can lay aside your conspiracy theory suspicions about propaganda).
[/quote]

I have not exaggerated the situation. Go and live amongst indigenous people and you will see for yourself. It is undeniable what the Catholic Church did to indigenous people. It's a historical fact like the Holocaust is a historical fact. You can still go to these places and see what the children were taught. If you think that being taught to hate yourself is a good thing, then you have serious issues and might be considered the perfect Catholic.

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1332267944' post='2404520']
Citation please. And not from an anti-Catholic source. How about nothing that disagrees with my personal belief of the matter, just to make sure it's not anti-Catholic propaganda?[/quote]

If you re-read what I'd wrote, you'd see that I did cite specific sources. And no they weren't anti-catholic propaganda cites. I'd gave the name of the documents that suspended Galileo's works, that mentions the charges, etc. However nobody here that believes the Catholic Church was right, has yet to cite a single source. Perhaps you should stop being so hypocritical and cite credible sources, rather then CAtholic Propaganda.

[quote]Sarcasm aside...
The Catholic Church teaches infallibly on matter of faith and morals. She never declared, "Thou shalt rape children and cause them to commit suicide.". In fact, the Church teaches quite the opposite, so I don't see how you can say anyone thought it *wasn't* wrong. How it was handled may be another matter, but the Church never taught such things are not wrong.
[/quote]

And that's pretty sad since the reason given to Native Americans being forced to send their Children to Catholic schools was they were immoral people. Perhaps raping children isn't immoral in the Catholic Church.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1332341235' post='2404706']

[color=#282828][size=3][b][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=2404316"][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_images/phatmass/snapback.png[/img][/url]cmotherofpirl, on 19 March 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:[/b][/size][/color]

[color=#282828][size=3]TV shows not withstanding VERY few kids are ever abducted unless its a custody battle.
A child is more likely to get raped by anybody other than a Catholic priest, starting with the parents, brothers, cousins and uncles, mum's new boyfriend, the next door neighbor,the janitor at school, the boy scout leader, the sports coach etc.[/size][/color]

[color=#282828]That's your justification? So moral...[/color]

[color=#0000FF]Nobody EVER claimed it was moral, but you insinuate that its frequent, and that is simply not true. [/color]
[/quote]

It is true, take a look at the number of children raped and molested by the Catholic Church in every country... it's a large number of children.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332507064' post='2406006']
I have not exaggerated the situation. Go and live amongst indigenous people and you will see for yourself. It is undeniable what the Catholic Church did to indigenous people. It's a historical fact like the Holocaust is a historical fact. You can still go to these places and see what the children were taught. If you think that being taught to hate yourself is a good thing, then you have serious issues and might be considered the perfect Catholic.



If you re-read what I'd wrote, you'd see that I did cite specific sources. And no they weren't anti-catholic propaganda cites. I'd gave the name of the documents that suspended Galileo's works, that mentions the charges, etc. However nobody here that believes the Catholic Church was right, has yet to cite a single source. Perhaps you should stop being so hypocritical and cite credible sources, rather then CAtholic Propaganda.



And that's pretty sad since the reason given to Native Americans being forced to send their Children to Catholic schools was they were immoral people. Perhaps raping children isn't immoral in the Catholic Church.



It is true, take a look at the number of children raped and molested by the Catholic Church in every country... it's a large number of children.
[/quote]

Okay - this is ridiculous. You've been told repeatedly that it is not the Catholic Church, but its members, that are committing these crimes. Maybe you feel that the Catholic Church is responsible somehow, or morally complicit with her teachings, but that doesn't mean that the Catholic Church is doing anything. Even if that were true, it would mean that "people within the Church commit terrible crimes, but the teachings of the Catholic Church are to blame." So I ask you to correct your post or offer an apology. Basically, what you're saying (besides being incredibly offensive) is that either 1. A building that you see as the Church is physically raping children (I don't think that's what you mean), or 2. About a billion people within the Church (as well as many people who are already dead) are all, at the same time, raping individual children. Have you ever been raped by a billion people (and a bunch of ghosts) at the same time?

As I already explained, we believe the Catholic Church IS the Mystical Body of Christ. So, when you say that the Catholic Church is raping children, that's like telling us that Christ is raping children - and that's where it's offensive.

Clearly neither case above is true, so again I ask you to amend your statement or offer an apology - or leave.

[fides' Jack]

Addition: It's quite clear that you are unable to form logical thoughts on the matter. Maybe it's too emotional of an issue for you.

Yes, there are some bad people in the Church, but the priests and bishops I know are incredibly good people, and are just as disgusted by these crimes as you are. For your own psychological and emotional good, I think you need to realize that, and stop blaming good people.