cmotherofpirl Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 me too: [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/"]http://www.vatican.v...emies/acdscien/[/url] The Church is still on the forefront of science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331920035' post='2401879'] Was not Johannes Kepler teaching the same thing as Galileo and getting away with it? [/quote] Certainly seemed to. And he was going beyond the theoretical like Galileo and was reconciling it with Scripture. Maybe he approached it a lot more tactfully than Galileo.....I don't like that answer though because I thought the principle reason Galileo was busted because of his judgement of Scripture passages [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler[/url] [quote][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] He became a Copernican at that time. In a student disputation, he defended [/size][/font][/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism"]heliocentrism[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] from both a theoretical and theological perspective, maintaining that the [/size][/font][/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun"]Sun[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] was the principal source of motive power in the universe[/size][/font][/color][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1331921086' post='2401888'] Certainly seemed to. And he was going beyond the theoretical like Galileo and was reconciling it with Scripture. Maybe he approached it a lot more tactfully than Galileo.....I don't like that answer though because I thought the principle reason Galileo was busted because of his judgement of Scripture passages [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler"]http://en.wikipedia....Johannes_Kepler[/url] [/quote] I keep reading Galileo was an annoying irritating individual and that was part of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331921272' post='2401889'] I keep reading Galileo was an annoying irritating individual and that was part of the problem. [/quote] That would make sense as the church really did try to take care of the matter several times before resorting to the tribunal thing. It wasn't like the church woke up one day and handed a summons to Galileo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RezaMikhaeil Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331921080' post='2401887'] me too: [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/"]http://www.vatican.v...emies/acdscien/[/url] The Church is still on the forefront of science [/quote] Umm sorry but your link doesn't prove your point. Throughout the last 200 years alone, the Roman Catholic Church has made a grip of scientific claims that were false. IE: When the Pope said that condoms make the aids epidemic in africa worse and don't work. This is inherently false, particularly in Uganda. [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331921272' post='2401889'] I keep reading Galileo was an annoying irritating individual and that was part of the problem. [/quote] [quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1331921551' post='2401892'] That would make sense as the church really did try to take care of the matter several times before resorting to the tribunal thing. It wasn't like the church woke up one day and handed a summons to Galileo. [/quote] Typical Catholics re-writing history. Edited March 17, 2012 by RezaMikhaeil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Pope Clement VII liked Copernicus' heliocentric theory, and for this reason it spread considerably after he heard it in 1533. Copernicus dedicated his "Six Books on the Revolutions of the Celestial Orbs" to Pope Paul III. For the next seventy-five years this book remained completely unmolested by the Catholic Church (though much attacked in Protestant Germany). Many scientists opposed Galileo's teaching of the heliocentric theory as fact, and on scientific grounds, including Lord Francis Bacon. Even Professor Huxley states that Galileo's opponents "had rather the best of it" [CE, v. 6, p. 344]. The physics necessary to factually prove the heliocentric theory simply didn't exist at the time, and it wasn't until 1838 that the parallax proof of heliocentrism was demonstrated. His arguments were brilliant, and sure, he discovered the moons of Jupiter, but Galileo couldn't prove the theory with the knowledge and scientific methods of the time. Galileo *was* annoying, and loved to assert *everything* he taught as fact, including his very erroneous beliefs about sunspots and the tides. He completely ignored even Kepler's theory concerning the tides, and his discovery of elliptical orbits. Finally, Galileo, for all he called himself Catholic, was not very Catholic. He wasn't obedient, and he wasn't prudent. He knew that his teachings would, no matter how true they were, confuse the lay people in a time of already great confusion (thanks to the Protestant Revolution), and that it could lead a great many people away from the Church. He certainly knew he wasn't being prudent and was endangering souls (had been told on multiple occasions) but he didn't care. He cared more about his teachings than the immortal souls of the people he was teaching. The Church did care for the souls. This was her primary concern (the faithful are always her primary concern) and she knew there was little harm in delaying the recognition of a disputed and unproven cosmological theory. Everyone paints Galileo out to be a martyr, but he was above all an inconsiderate Catholic. He wanted the recognition of being Catholic (so people would listen to his theory; which is probably why he didn't just leave the Church when his "terrible persecution" became too hard) but he didn't care for the people within her or obedience to her. Kepler got away with teaching the heliocentric theory--as did Copernicus before him--because they prudent about it, and they cared about the people being taught. They weren't bad Catholics. And even if the Church had had Galileo drawn and quartered for a theory that had been completely proven... It wouldn't prove that the Church is against science, is oppressive, etc. etc. As Arthur Koestler said, "The Galileo affair was an isolated, and in fact quite untypical, episode in the history of relations between science and theology...But it's dramatic circumstances, magnified out of all proportion, created a popular belief that science stood for freedom, the Church for oppression of thought." (Arthur Koestler, The Sleepwalkers, p. 533) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 [quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1331989674' post='2402310'] Umm sorry but your link doesn't prove your point. Throughout the last 200 years alone, the Roman Catholic Church has made a grip of scientific claims that were false. IE: When the Pope said that condoms make the aids epidemic in africa worse and don't work. This is inherently false, particularly in Uganda. [/quote]http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2009/03/aids_expert_who_defended_the_p.html The Pope isn't the only one making that connection. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 [quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1331989674' post='2402310'] Typical Catholics re-writing history. [/quote] Proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 [quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1331989674' post='2402310'] Typical Catholics re-writing history. [/quote] , lol this from a typical revisionist view of history. Ifs its catholic, it must be made -up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 i just don't understand why we're still arguing about Galileo all these years later? i guess i just am not that "into" ancient history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 [quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1331880850' post='2401713'] Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. Therefore if this is what Galileo was found guilty of and was contrary to the Roman Catholic Church teaching, what do you think the Catholic Church believed? This isn't rocket science dude. [/quote] There were many people calling him a heretic, and so the Church had to look into the matter. Once it was learned that they couldn't be absolutely sure if Galileo was right, since it seemed to shake the faith of so many, the Church thought caution should be applied, and rightly so. What don't you get about that? "Vehemently suspect of heresy" doesn't mean the same thing as "heretic". As a non-Catholic, you probably don't understand completely... He [b]was not [/b]found contrary to Roman Catholic Church teaching; he [b]was [/b]found disobedient. As a side note, I do actually have friends who are rocket scientists. Not that that has any bearing on the matter... [quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1331880850' post='2401713'] It wasn't that good of an explaination [/quote] Well, I think it is. But maybe you're smarter than me. Care to say why it's not a good explanation? I said it was about the psychological states of people then and people now. Seems reasonable to me. Offer an argument, please. [quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1331880850' post='2401713'] Yes he was, he was placed under house arrest that is physical punishment. Prior to that he was imprisoned for a short period of time. Additionally his writings and those of Capericus were suspended as far as prints were concerned until they would be re-written from the churches perspective. This is also a suspension of liberty, which is physical in nature. [/quote] Wait, liberty is physical in nature? Okay, now I know there's something wrong with your logic. I guess when I hear "physical punishment" I think of beatings and things of that nature. He wasn't forced to stay under house arrest, but he couldn't expect to still be Catholic if he didn't. So really, the punishment was mental and emotional, not physical. Had he not stayed under house arrest, he would have been excommunicated, and that's where the real punishment lay. [quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1331989674' post='2402310'] Umm sorry but your link doesn't prove your point. Throughout the last 200 years alone, the Roman Catholic Church has made a grip of scientific claims that were false. IE: When the Pope said that condoms make the aids epidemic in africa worse and don't work. This is inherently false, particularly in Uganda. [/quote] Ah, now I see. This is just a rant against the Church. Science is always proven after the fact. The aids epidemic is still going on, so you can't really say for sure whether what the Pope said is false. Actually, all current evidence points to his statements being true. But I'm not going to find that evidence - just things I've read (just like all your evidence for everything is just things you've read). [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1332031153' post='2402472'] i just don't understand why we're still arguing about Galileo all these years later? i guess i just am not that "into" ancient history. [/quote] Honestly, I'm usually not either. In fact, I mostly hate history. But one area that I've taken particular interest in is the controversy over Galileo, because I've been attacked personally about that because I'm Catholic. So I did some research and a couple papers on the history of those events in school. One thing I found particularly interesting is that Martin Luther was one of Galileo's strongest opponents (and, I believe, one of the first to call him a heretic). Very interesting indeed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1332031153' post='2402472'] i just don't understand why we're still arguing about Galileo all these years later? i guess i just am not that "into" ancient history. [/quote]Galileo's ancient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1332068758' post='2402932'] Galileo's ancient? [/quote] Thus sayeth the Egyptian archaeologist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1332074420' post='2402939'] Thus sayeth the Egyptian archaeologist [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RezaMikhaeil Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1332021994' post='2402424'] , lol this from a typical revisionist view of history. Ifs its catholic, it must be made -up. [/quote] Who's revisionist? You are... you're the one repeatedly contradicting history. Like when you said that the Catholic Church had nothing against Galileo's writings, which is blantantly false. The historical documents all prove that they suspended their printing until they would be re-written to favor the Roman Catholic version of science, which was false. Your problem is that you can never admit when the Catholic Church is injust, which is most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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