My Thoughts On Galileo

[fides' Jack]

So, the Galileo controversy was brought up in another thread, and since that thread was thoroughly hijacked, I don't want to contribute to it there.

I found it interesting that nobody mentioned Galileo's supposed "excommunication", which many people think happened. I think that shows that the people of PM have a greater intelligence than the average internet users. I know that's not saying much, but I personally believe that the difference is much greater than the sentence suggests. For the record, Galileo was not excommunicated.

Before I start, I do want to say that I have not seen any comments here saying that the Church should not have apologized for the Galileo fiasco. Nor should we see any such comments. We should not judge the actions of the Church over such matters.

That being said, I offer my reasons for believing that the Church was right during Galileo's time, and is right during our time.

It turns out that both Galileo and the popular theory of his day about whether the sun revolved around the earth or the earth revolved around the sun were wrong. Galileo's idea was much closer to reality, but he was still wrong.

But really, this was never a matter of whether he was right or wrong. In fact, he was often supported by the Church. Even the Pope (can't recall - Urban VI? VII? Or am I way off base?) at the time personally commended Galileo for his scientific achievement. The problem arose because of the ignorance of the common people, including some priests. By that time there had already been a lot of argument within the Church about the interpretation of scriptures. A lot of people, including priests, believed in a literal interpretation of Genesis, in which a case could be made for the sun revolving around the earth. Those same people were not ready to question that belief. Given that fact, and the fact that Galileo did not have conclusive proof yet, the Church's decision to try to limit Galileo was correct. After all, while he might have been right (they didn't know for sure at the time), he was teaching things as fact that some took as heresy. Had the Church outright accepted Galileo's position, many lay people, and some priests, too, would have left the Church. The Church is, and has always been, concerned first and foremost about the salvation of souls. As the Church has always done, she practiced prudence in the matter, by asking Galileo to simply not preach his ideas as truth. Galileo initially followed this directive, but later on did not, and that eventually led to his punishment by the Church. Since he was Catholic, the Church absolutely had the right and obligation to order him around in that way.

So this was a matter of obedience, and not his teachings. All throughout that time, there were many calling his ideas heretical. Even priests accused him of heresy, but it did not come from the Church.

Scientifically speaking, we are much more advanced today than we were then. We have a much greater understanding of the universe. Psychologically speaking, we haven't advanced at all. We are still immature, naive, eager to throw insults and accusations, and unwilling to accept that we might be wrong. Psychologically speaking, based on the ignorance of the common people at the time and the fact that they, too, were human, the Church acted properly concerning Galileo. Psychologically speaking, based on the ignorance of the common people living now, and our own humanness, the Church acted properly concerning offering an apology for the Galileo fiasco.

But it's clear to me that it was not the Church in Galileo's time that was keeping people ignorant - it was the common people themselves.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Please provide citation for your claim that the Church didn't have a problem with Galileo but the common priest. What you're saying doesn't fit with history. I will cite my argument on the previous thread which is varifiable.

[quote]What you're saying is not true. If you read [i]Index Librorum Prohibitorum[/i], you will see that literature containing Copernicus theory were suspended until they could be re-written. This includes [i]De Revolutionibus[/i]. It also declared that the idea that the sun stood still and the earth moved were false and contrary to scripture.[/quote]

As for Galileo's theory of the earth and the sun. It was varifiable via telescope.

Edited March 14, 2012 by RezaMikhaeil

[RezaMikhaeil]

Note: Saying that the Church was right and Galileo was wrong, yet saying that it's good that the church apologized doesn't make sense. Either the Church was wrong and needed to apologized or it was right and didn't. You can't have it both ways.

[Deus te Amat]

You know, you never responded to my post about the fact that Galileo was wrong, too.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Psychologically speaking, it's manipulation to tell your followers "either agree with me, or I will physically punish you". That is usually reserved for cults. If what one believes truly is the truth, then they shouldn't be afraid to let their followers research it for themselves and make their own decision. It's as I'd said to a Muslim in a recient debate. He said that the punishment for apostacy should be death because his religion was true. I'd followed that up with, "if a religion needs to physically threaten it's followers, that only serves to prove that it is not true. For if it was true, it wouldn't need to use physical threats, rather it would be able to stand on it's own under the most scrutinous critique."

[Deus te Amat]

The problem was that Galileo couldn't even prove it for himself. Bellarmine was completely in favor of him teaching it as theory, because there was no substantial evidence supporting it, entirely. I said in my other post that Galileo scoffed at the idea of elliptical orbits.

I'm not condoning the Church's action, but you are failing to take into consideration the socio-political factors of the time period. The Church was still reeling from the effects of the reformation. The pendulum swung too far back and the Church took an unmitigated stance on scripture -- sola scriptura, in fact. Galileo actually argued for an interpretation of scripture in the same way that we do today, he unfortuntely was seen to be further eroding at the Church's unity.

The Church's reaction was a mistake, and has been rectified. Galileo was never excommunicated, never imprisoned. He spent his time in Rome living in a Cardinal's palace. After being "condemned", he spent time with a florentine Lord before returning home, where he was still able to visit his daughters at a nearby convent.

Pope Urban was his patron, and was interested in the ramifications of the heliocentric theory. Galileo was too prideful and pushed too fast and too hard. He couldn't wait and provide proof, despite the urgings of ecclesial scholars. Sure, he was brilliant, but, when you consider the situation, his fate could have turned out much differently had he used a bit more tact.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Deus_te_Amat

[Winchester]

Let me go!

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1331753311' post='2400717']
The problem was that Galileo couldn't even prove it for himself. Bellarmine was completely in favor of him teaching it as theory, because there was no substantial evidence supporting it, entirely. I said in my other post that Galileo scoffed at the idea of elliptical orbits.[/quote]

Well he did prove the primary point that the earth was not stationary. He couldn't prove all of his points, but that is irrelevant. He was able to prove this primary point with scientific evidence that he uncovered with the use of his telescope. What is relevant is that scientists couldn't be scientists without going along with the social and physical cohersion of the Roman Catholic Church. More importantly the Roman Catholic Church had zero scientific evidence proving it's claims about science.

[quote]I'm not condoning the Church's action, but you are failing to take into consideration the socio-political factors of the time period. The Church was still reeling from the effects of the reformation. The pendulum swung too far back and the Church took an unmitigated stance on scripture -- sola scriptura, in fact. Galileo actually argued for an interpretation of scripture in the same way that we do today, he unfortuntely was seen to be further eroding at the Church's unity.[/quote] Who set the tone for that predicament? It was the Roman Catholic Church. They were the one's claiming this infallibility and when Luther punched holes in it and later Galileo, they were disgraced. If they hadn't had locked themselves into these scientific models that were false, and been humble about their approach, they wouldn't have gotten themselves into that situation in the first place. The Orthodox Churches didn't lock themselves into that model, rather they left it to divine mystery and as a result didn't have these same kinds of problems.

[quote]The Church's reaction was a mistake, and has been rectified. Galileo was never excommunicated, never imprisoned. He spent his time in Rome living in a Cardinal's palace. After being "condemned", he spent time with a florentine Lord before returning home, where he was still able to visit his daughters at a nearby convent.[/quote] You're wrong about this, he was imprisoned for a short period of time, in which was later changed to house arrest. However you fail to see that even house arrest with special priviledges is immoral. Religious institutions shouldn't have that sort of physical power over our lives.

[quote]Pope Urban was his patron, and was interested in the ramifications of the heliocentric theory. Galileo was too prideful and pushed too fast and too hard. He couldn't wait and provide proof, despite the urgings of ecclesial scholars. Sure, he was brilliant, but, when you consider the situation, his fate could have turned out much differently had he used a bit more tact.
[/quote] Prideful? There was pride involved but it wasn't on the behalf of Galileo, it was on the side of the Roman Catholic Church. They were the ones that had locked themselves into a false scientific model and imprisoned people that pushed back against it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

What a horrible time period in which to be a scientist. Praise God that many aspects of religion have since been superseded by science and/or secularism.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1331757432' post='2400779']
What a horrible time period in which to be a scientist. Praise God that many aspects of religion have since been superseded by science and/or secularism.
[/quote]

Agreed

Edited March 14, 2012 by RezaMikhaeil

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1331752167' post='2400700']
Please provide citation for your claim that the Church didn't have a problem with Galileo but the common priest. What you're saying doesn't fit with history. I will cite my argument on the previous thread which is varifiable.

As for Galileo's theory of the earth and the sun. It was varifiable via telescope.
[/quote]

Please provide citation for the portion of the document you're referring to that states that the Church taught an Earth-centric orbit as a matter of faith.

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1331752329' post='2400701']
Note: Saying that the Church was right and Galileo was wrong, yet saying that it's good that the church apologized doesn't make sense. Either the Church was wrong and needed to apologized or it was right and didn't. You can't have it both ways.
[/quote]

Sure I can. I explained how above.

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1331752696' post='2400710']
Psychologically speaking, it's manipulation to tell your followers "either agree with me, or I will physically punish you". That is usually reserved for cults. If what one believes truly is the truth, then they shouldn't be afraid to let their followers research it for themselves and make their own decision. It's as I'd said to a Muslim in a recient debate. He said that the punishment for apostacy should be death because his religion was true. I'd followed that up with, "if a religion needs to physically threaten it's followers, that only serves to prove that it is not true. For if it was true, it wouldn't need to use physical threats, rather it would be able to stand on it's own under the most scrutinous critique."
[/quote]

Galileo was not physically punished. He was placed under house arrest is a luxurious building, and had all his cares attended to. If he didn't want to be there, he didn't need to stay. But in order to remain Catholic, he had to obey at least that.

It was his own immaturity that prompted such actions.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1331757432' post='2400779']
What a horrible time period in which to be a scientist. Praise God that many aspects of religion have since been superseded by science and/or secularism.
[/quote]


What a horrible time period it is now in which to be a Christian. Interestingly, in some time periods, to be a scientist (even at the leading edge of science) was to be Christian.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1331833531' post='2401239']
What a horrible time period it is now in which to be a Christian. Interestingly, in some time periods, to be a scientist (even at the leading edge of science) was to be Christian.
[/quote]
I disagree. The freedom to be Christian or not be Christian exists. In times past you were Christian or you were an apostate and a social outcast (assuming you weren't born a heathen). I think it's better to be authentically Christian, without social compulsion and without fear of tyranny if you happen to think wrong.
In some time periods to be a scientist was to be a Muslim. One could say that in the past to be a scientist was to be a European. This is interesting, but what point are you trying to make? Are you suggesting a genetic or association fallacy?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1331833531' post='2401239']
Please provide citation for the portion of the document you're referring to that states that the Church taught an Earth-centric orbit as a matter of faith.[/quote]

Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture.

Therefore if this is what Galileo was found guilty of and was contrary to the Roman Catholic Church teaching, what do you think the Catholic Church believed? This isn't rocket science dude.


[quote]Sure I can. I explained how above.[/quote] It wasn't that good of an explaination

[quote]Galileo was not physically punished. He was placed under house arrest is a luxurious building, and had all his cares attended to. If he didn't want to be there, he didn't need to stay. But in order to remain Catholic, he had to obey at least that.[/quote]

Yes he was, he was placed under house arrest that is physical punishment. Prior to that he was imprisoned for a short period of time. Additionally his writings and those of Capericus were suspended as far as prints were concerned until they would be re-written from the churches perspective. This is also a suspension of liberty, which is physical in nature.

[quote]It was his own immaturity that prompted such actions.[/quote]

There is no such evidence of this claim. If Galileo hadn't had stuck it to the church, his writings would have been silenced and re-written. Particularly the parts in which he was correct and the church was wrong. Was he perfect? By no means but he was more then human and given the conditions that he was under, he did the right thing. I believe it is the church that was immature in their response. If they were mature, they would have allowed for a difference of opinion by scientists.

[cmotherofpirl]

Was not Johannes Kepler teaching the same thing as Galileo and getting away with it?

[sixpence]

at this point ... i would say they are both kind of wrong and kind of right. (although I could be wrong, I hate physics). From the point of view of the galaxy, they were both wrong. Neither the sun nor the earth is stationary or at the center. From the point of view of everything that exists.... who knows, maybe we ARE in the center? We can't really know I don't think. We can't go outside of Everything and look at where everything located...

As for Church v. Science, I am SO glad to be living in this era.