Slappo Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331832266' post='2401207'] Okay, if it's context you want: So why then, if the congregation needn't sing if they don't want to, should every effort be made that the "faithful of the entire world" be made to know how to sing these responses? Seems like only the people who want to sing should be taught those responses, if those are the only people who need to sing. [/quote] Again it doesn't say that the faithful ought to sing, only that they need to be taught how. It's a lot easier for me to pray hearing a song I know than it is one that I'm not familiar with at all. Doesn't mean I have to sing the song to pray though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331832151' post='2401202'] The documents no where said the opposite of what Nihil Obstat was saying. I only saw documents that referred to the existence of sacred music outside of gregorian chant. Well, polyphony is sacred music outside of gregorian chant. No document was sited that said guitars, hymns, etc. were sacred music. What's to stop composers from writing new polyphony? Then we'd have modern sacred music. The Church instructed the clergy that they should make every effort to teach the faithful the basic chants of the mass, but they did not instruct that the laity had to sing them. Can you please site a document where it is encouraged that the faithful respond verbally in the Traditional Latin Mass? That is appropriately referred to as a dialogue mass. I don't like responding at mass as it can break my concentration some times (not a multi tasker ) [/quote] Um, ever heard of Morten Lauridsen? Kevin Allen? Gerald Near? Jean Laglais? Charles Widor? (I think it's Charles) Sacred music has NOT stopped being written. And the church actually encourages them. Why would she stop them? She did instruct them to learn to sing them. [quote]a) First, the congregation can sing the liturgical responses. These are: [i]Amen; Et cum spiritu tuo; Gloria tibi, Domine; Habemus ad Dominum; Dignum et justum est; Sed libera nos a malo; Deo gratias[/i].[b] Every effort must be made that the faithful of the entire world learn to sing these responses.[/b] b) Secondly, the congregation can sing the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: [i]Kyrie, eleison; Gloria in excelsis Deo; Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei[/i]. [b]Every effort must be made that the faithful learn to sing these parts[/b], particularly according to the simpler Gregorian melodies. But if they are unable to sing all these parts, there is no reason why they cannot sing the easier ones: [i]Kyrie, eleison; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei[/i]; the choir, then, can sing the [i]Gloria[/i], and [i]Credo[/i].[/quote] And again, this was written before Vatican II, so it is meant for both Traditional Latin Mass and NO Masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331832394' post='2401213'] Are you telling me that my cross-shaped church got it ALL WRONG because we're facing south? IS MY WHOLE WORSHIP A SHAM?! I'm feeling silly today. [/quote] In an academic way it's sort of unfortunate that the way city planning developed doesn't often allow an east facing sanctuary. That's why I think ad orientem worship is so important; because it recognizes 'liturgical east', even when 'magnetic' east isn't always an option. The idea of liturgical east is a good example of how liturgy develops organically, as it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331832394' post='2401213'] Are you telling me that my cross-shaped church got it ALL WRONG because we're facing south? IS MY WHOLE WORSHIP A SHAM?! I'm feeling silly today. [/quote] I am too... I'm not saying they got it all wrong. I think some architecture really is inappropriate for Mass. A cruciform church is not inappropriate (if I said that, I would have to say the same about St. Peter's!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1331832487' post='2401217'] Um, ever heard of Morten Lauridsen? Kevin Allen? Gerald Near? Jean Laglais? Charles Widor? (I think it's Charles) Sacred music has NOT stopped being written. And the church actually encourages them. Why would she stop them? [/quote] Charles-Marie to split hairs... (imagine his troll hair as organ pipes rammed into his skull). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331832737' post='2401224'] Charles-Marie to split hairs... (imagine his troll hair as organ pipes rammed into his skull). [/quote] I knew it was/wasn't Charles. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1331832487' post='2401217'] Um, ever heard of Morten Lauridsen? Kevin Allen? Gerald Near? Jean Laglais? Charles Widor? (I think it's Charles) Sacred music has NOT stopped being written. And the church actually encourages them. Why would she stop them? She did instruct them to learn to sing them. And again, this was written before Vatican II, so it is meant for both Traditional Latin Mass and NO Masses. [/quote] Yes the Church instructed the faithful to learn to sing, but never to ACTUALLY sing. If I learn to be a doctor I don't actually have to be a doctor... i don't get what's so confusing about that? If the Church actually instructed us to sing, then we would have an obligation to, but I am not morally obliged to sing the mass parts at mass. No I'm not familar with those composers, but when did I ever say we should stop having Sacred Music developed? I was simply outlining that no where did the Church define that sacred music can include guitars, hymns, or pop music. Edit: I googled some of them and though I'm not familiar with the names, I'm familiar with some of the pieces. I don't understand what that has to do with any of my posts though... Edited March 15, 2012 by Slappo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1331831895' post='2401198'] Actually, just to be completely correct, to sing [i]well[/i] is to pray twice. [/quote] sure, ruin my quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1331833014' post='2401231'] sure, ruin my quote. [/quote] It's totally true, and I should really mention that "well" part to a few folks I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331833155' post='2401234'] It's totally true, and I should really mention that "well" part to a few folks I know [/quote] but are we talking human standards or God's standard of "well"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1331833202' post='2401235'] but are we talking human standards or God's standard of "well"? [/quote] God's. Therefore no human should ever sing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1331833624' post='2401241'] God's. Therefore no human should ever sing. [/quote] This made me laugh out loud. And now I am going to lunch for real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331833004' post='2401230'] Yes the Church instructed the faithful to learn to sing, but never to ACTUALLY sing. If I learn to be a doctor I don't actually have to be a doctor... i don't get what's so confusing about that? If the Church actually instructed us to sing, then we would have an obligation to, but I am not morally obliged to sing the mass parts at mass. No I'm not familar with those composers, but when did I ever say we should stop having Sacred Music developed? I was simply outlining that no where did the Church define that sacred music can include guitars, hymns, or pop music. Edit: I googled some of them and though I'm not familiar with the names, I'm familiar with some of the pieces. I don't understand what that has to do with any of my posts though... [/quote] I'm really really confused about what you ARE trying to say. NO ONE here is advocating Daivid Hass or guitars at Mass. So I'm not sure what your stance is here. Why did you bring them up? All we are saying is that church allows for WAY more than just chant and polyphony (which, btw, polyphony can mean almost anything, because its literal translation is "many sounds"). So what is your problem with us advocating use of more than just chant? As to the second, Spin it anyway you want, the Church is prescribing that the faithful sing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mme_hardy Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I think this modern [url="http://www.poorclarescincinnati.org/Images/sistersAtPrayer634.jpg"]Poor Clare[/url] chapel is glorious. There's another order's chapel (anybody remember this one?) that has the baptismal font overflowing down to the altar, forming the physical separation between the sisters and the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='mme_hardy' timestamp='1331834300' post='2401247'] I think this modern [url="http://www.poorclarescincinnati.org/Images/sistersAtPrayer634.jpg"]Poor Clare[/url] chapel is glorious. There's another order's chapel (anybody remember this one?) that has the baptismal font overflowing down to the altar, forming the physical separation between the sisters and the world. [/quote] I'm not a fan of the altar, but I do like the choir arrangement. It's quite tasteful. Honestly, given space constraints and with respect to tradition, I think they'd be far better served by an altar against the east end/ambulatory, and a small reredos. That's more a function of how Mass is typically celebrated right now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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