fides' Jack Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331755084' post='2400747'] If I become fabulously rich, then I'll personally fund a Traditional Latin Mass parish with a full schola and enough priests to celebrate solemn Masses. [/quote] So, 1 priest then, and a deacon and subdeacon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331831528' post='2401188'] You're saying that ultramodern monstrosities of the late 20th and 21st centuries are in fact modeled after the earliest Roman churches? If you can back that up I'd be glad to discuss it further, but it's quite an assertion. Beyond that, I'm certainly not trolling and it's absolutely unfair to accuse me of that. I'm not sure what you've got against me. I certainly don't recall ever being less than respectful with you. In fact I recall rather liking you. So... yeah, lolwut? [/quote] Are you ignoring me on purpose? Oh and to the point: YOU'RE SO RIGHT: circular churches were just a random idea in the 20th century! They couldn't possibly have anything at all to do with ancient architecture or precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1331831618' post='2401191'] So, 1 priest then, and a deacon and subdeacon? [/quote] I'd prefer three priests (more opportunity for confession, more flexibility if one gets sick), and then a bunch of seminarians for servers. Maybe I'll fund an entire seminary. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331831668' post='2401193'] Are you ignoring me on purpose? Oh and to the point: YOU'RE SO RIGHT: circular churches were just a random idea in the 20th century! They couldn't possibly have anything at all to do with ancient architecture or precedent. [/quote] As I said, if you can show me some stuff that links the modernist churches of the 20th century to very early churches, I'll be more than happy to look it over and respond. I don't personally think that was the case, but I'd be more than happy to discuss it. I don't know what's going on with this snarkiness. I'm being entirely straightforward in this thread, and I'd appreciate some basic respect. I'm not sure what you think I was ignoring, but as I'm sure you're aware it can be hard to keep track of every single reply in a hot thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331831528' post='2401188'] You're saying that ultramodern monstrosities of the late 20th and 21st centuries are in fact modeled after the earliest Roman churches? If you can back that up I'd be glad to discuss it further, but it's quite an assertion. Beyond that, I'm certainly not trolling and it's absolutely unfair to accuse me of that. I'm not sure what you've got against me. I certainly don't recall ever being less than respectful with you. In fact I recall rather liking you. So... yeah, lolwut? [/quote] I guess I'm thinking of the only circular churches I've been in in the US, which, I don't like, but aren't monstrosities. And yes, I'd say the fundamental premise is similar for my experience. My label of "trollings" refers to any thread that devolves into a sacred music/Traditional Latin Mass/church structure bash that gets nowhere, flames ire, and that tends to have you in the center. No offense intended. That's just trolling, to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1331830671' post='2401172'] to sing is to pray twice? [/quote] Actually, just to be completely correct, to sing [i]well[/i] is to pray twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1331831784' post='2401197'] I guess I'm thinking of the only circular churches I've been in in the US, which, I don't like, but aren't monstrosities. And yes, I'd say the fundamental premise is similar for my experience. My label of "trollings" refers to any thread that devolves into a sacred music/Traditional Latin Mass/church structure bash that gets nowhere, flames ire, and that tends to have you in the center. No offense intended. That's just trolling, to me. [/quote] I'm certainly not trolling. I feel very strongly about it, and I'm willing to share my opinion. You're on a Catholic website; what on earth do you expect? Furthermore, I'm always trying to present my point of view honestly and respectfully. If you read my older posts you can see my opinions developing and changing, and that's just as true lately. I've been reading huge amounts of material on liturgical development and have been working very hard at developing my understanding. I didn't realize it constituted trolling just to want to argue for an opinion you feel strongly about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331831770' post='2401196'] As I said, if you can show me some stuff that links the modernist churches of the 20th century to very early churches, I'll be more than happy to look it over and respond. I don't personally think that was the case, but I'd be more than happy to discuss it. I don't know what's going on with this snarkiness. I'm being entirely straightforward in this thread, and I'd appreciate some basic respect. I'm not sure what you think I was ignoring, but as I'm sure you're aware it can be hard to keep track of every single reply in a hot thread. [/quote] The snark was, perhaps, a bit much. I instantly regretted it, I'll admit. Forgive me my transgression. Re: keeping up with posts -- BUT DIDN'T YOU SEE MY AMESOME QUOTES ON PAGE THREE?! All jokes aside, I rarely post these days, but when I do, there is usually some actual thought behind it. Not that I intend to accuse any of my brethren of meaningless, thoughtless, or fruitless posts, but I really did post some stuff I wanted you to see. I'm still hoping you'll go back and find the post (or here, let me link you: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/119739-how-all-catholic-churches-should-look/page__view__findpost__p__2401098"]click here[/url]) and respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1331831306' post='2401180'] So far you've offered an opinion on what music is acceptable at Mass. You say chant and old polyphony. He called you on it, you said you have made no opinions on it. What? He directly quoted you and offered church documents that say exactly the opposite of what you are saying. [/quote] The documents no where said the opposite of what Nihil Obstat was saying. I only saw documents that referred to the existence of sacred music outside of gregorian chant. Well, polyphony is sacred music outside of gregorian chant. No document was sited that said guitars, hymns, etc. were sacred music. What's to stop composers from writing new polyphony? Then we'd have modern sacred music. [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1331831306' post='2401180'] Again, long before Vatican II, the church instructed the faithful that they should indeed learn the basic chants of the Mass [i]and sing them[/i]. Not wanting to is really not a great reason not to do so. [/quote] The Church instructed the clergy that they should make every effort to teach the faithful the basic chants of the mass, but they did not instruct that the laity had to sing them. [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1331831306' post='2401180'] It is, however, still encouraged. (And yes, I've been liturgically trained for Traditional Latin Masses). If I show up at mass and say "yo, God, I'm here ok?" and sit there bummed that I'm there, HOW is that different from someone who is at Mass and is off in their own world EVEN if that is praying the rosary or something. Neither one of those people is really participating in Mass. [/quote] Can you please cite a document where it is encouraged that the faithful respond verbally in the Traditional Latin Mass? That is appropriately referred to as a dialogue mass. I don't like responding at mass as it can break my concentration some times (not a multi tasker ) Edit for spelling correction Edited March 15, 2012 by Slappo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331832049' post='2401201'] The snark was, perhaps, a bit much. I instantly regretted it, I'll admit. Forgive me my transgression. Re: keeping up with posts -- BUT DIDN'T YOU SEE MY amesome QUOTES ON PAGE THREE?! All jokes aside, I rarely post these days, but when I do, there is usually some actual thought behind it. Not that I intend to accuse any of my brethren of meaningless, thoughtless, or fruitless posts, but I really did post some stuff I wanted you to see. I'm still hoping you'll go back and find the post (or here, let me link you: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/119739-how-all-catholic-churches-should-look/page__view__findpost__p__2401098"]click here[/url]) and respond. [/quote] Oh, that one? I didn't respond because I saw nothing to respond to. Maybe you're reading me in a way I didn't intend. There's nothing in that post I've argued against, for sure. I don't disagree with anything there, so I'm not sure what response you were looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I haven't read half the posts here, but Nihil is right in that circular buildings are not suited to Catholic worship, for more reasons than one. One of the first ones that comes to mind is the whole facing east thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331831389' post='2401182'] Taken out of context much? i like how you added in some words "shouldn't sing the". That's not what the document says and that's not the context the document says it in. [color=#000000]b) Secondly, the congregation [u][b]can sing the parts[/b][/u] of the Ordinary of the Mass: [/color][i]Kyrie, eleison; Gloria in excelsis Deo; Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei[/i][color=#000000]. Every effort must be made that the faithful learn to sing these parts, particularly according to the simpler Gregorian melodies. [u][b]But if they are unable to sing all these parts, there is no reason why they cannot sing[/b][/u] the easier ones: [/color][i]Kyrie, eleison; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei[/i][color=#000000]; the choir, then, can sing the [/color][i]Gloria[/i][color=#000000], and [/color][i]Credo[/i][color=#000000]."[/color] In other words: The faithful can, are permitted to sing the parts of the ordinary of the mass, and effort must be made that they learn these parts (regardless of if they sing them they should learn them), but if they are unable to sing all of the parts, they can still sing some of them. Quite different than "There is no reason they should not sing..." [/quote] Okay, if it's context you want: [quote][color=#000000]a) First, the congregation can sing the liturgical responses. These are: [/color][i]Amen; Et cum spiritu tuo; Gloria tibi, Domine; Habemus ad Dominum; Dignum et justum est; Sed libera nos a malo; Deo gratias[/i][color=#000000].[b] Every effort must be made that the faithful of the entire world learn to sing these responses.[/b][/color] [color=#000000]b) Secondly, the congregation can sing the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: [/color][i]Kyrie, eleison; Gloria in excelsis Deo; Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei[/i][color=#000000]. [b]Every effort must be made that the faithful learn to sing these parts[/b], particularly according to the simpler Gregorian melodies. But if they are unable to sing all these parts, there is no reason why they cannot sing the easier ones: [/color][i]Kyrie, eleison; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei[/i][color=#000000]; the choir, then, can sing the [/color][i]Gloria[/i][color=#000000], and [/color][i]Credo[/i][color=#000000].[/color][/quote] So why then, if the congregation needn't sing if they don't want to, should every effort be made that the "faithful of the entire world" be made to know how to sing these responses? Seems like only the people who want to sing should be taught those responses, if those are the only people who need to sing. Edited March 15, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331832164' post='2401204'] Oh, that one? I didn't respond because I saw nothing to respond to. Maybe you're reading me in a way I didn't intend. There's nothing in that post I've argued against, for sure. I don't disagree with anything there, so I'm not sure what response you were looking for. [/quote] Ah, well then I clearly failed in my attempt at dialogue. If you'll excuse me, I am "running away" to grab lunch (Thai food is calling my name, LITERALLY I CAN HEAR IT... just kidding) but would very much enjoy conversing with you either upon my return or later this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331832327' post='2401210'] Ah, well then I clearly failed in my attempt at dialogue. If you'll excuse me, I am "running away" to grab lunch (Thai food is calling my name, LITERALLY I CAN HEAR IT... just kidding) but would very much enjoy conversing with you either upon my return or later this evening. [/quote] I'm more than willing, whenever I'm available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1331832253' post='2401206'] I haven't read half the posts here, but Nihil is right in that circular buildings are not suited to Catholic worship, for more reasons than one. One of the first ones that comes to mind is the whole facing east thing. [/quote] Are you telling me that my cross-shaped church got it ALL WRONG because we're facing south? IS MY WHOLE WORSHIP A SHAM?! I'm feeling silly today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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