How All Catholic Churches Should Look!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331830222' post='2401164']
Two quick things and I'll butt my head back out:
Just because signing is encourage doesn't mean it is a required part of active participation. Active participation is the raising up of ones soul to the actions taking place at mass. For some, it might be beneficial for them to sing, for others they may need to stay perfectly silent as they meditate on the liturgical actio[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]ns and the worship being given to God.[/quote][/font][/size]
[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I never said anything about how singing relates to active participation, only that the Church wants us to sing. And it isn't encouraged; the document says that "[color=#000000]there is no reason why they [shouldn't sing the] [/color][i]Kyrie, eleison; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei[/i][i][color="#000000"]". [/color][/i][color="#000000"]That's pretty strong language.[/color][/font][/size]
[quote]
The documents reference chant and other forms of sacred music. FYI Polyphony is not considered chant, so it's a large stretch to go from chant as pride of place to David Haas as sacred music. I'm not commenting on if it is possible or not, merely that it is a large stretch, and that there are other forms of sacred music that are much closer to the design of chant then David Haas is.
[/quote]
Show of hands for who wants David Haas in the mass? No one? Good.

[Lil Red]

to sing is to pray twice?

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331830621' post='2401171']Show of hands for who wants David Haas in the mass? No one? Good.[/quote]

oh, sweet mercy, no.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1331830640' post='2401172']
to sing is to pray twice?
[/quote]
That's my favorite line from [i]Anchorman[/i]!

[Lil Red]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331830674' post='2401173']
That's my favorite line from [i]Anchorman[/i]!
[/quote]

I thought it was Augustine.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1331830246' post='2401166']
Hey look, it's the first circular church!


Hey look! It was built in the fifth century!
[url="http://romanchurches.wikia.com/wiki/Santo_Stefano_Rotondo_al_Celio"]http://romanchurches...otondo_al_Celio[/url]
[/quote]

I don't see where all the seats are set up for people to sit on all 4 sides of the altar but maybe they just don't show in the picture? I think by circular church NO was talking about churches that include circular seating, not just a circular shaped sanctuary.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331830798' post='2401176']
I don't see where all the seats are set up for people to sit on all 4 sides of the altar but maybe they just don't show in the picture? I think by circular church NO was talking about churches that include circular seating, not just a circular shaped sanctuary.
[/quote]

were the people still standing/kneeling (no sitting) throughout Mass at that point? (honest question.)

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1331830246' post='2401166']
Hey look, it's the first circular church in Rome!

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Celio_-_santo_Stefano_Rotondo_-_interno_in_restauro_01533-4.JPG[/img]


Hey look! It was built in the fifth century!
[url="http://romanchurches.wikia.com/wiki/Santo_Stefano_Rotondo_al_Celio"]http://romanchurches...otondo_al_Celio[/url]
[/quote]

There are a few notable exceptions, and looking in greater detail the reasons for that do become apparent. It's not really fair to compare a rather unique fifth century church to an all too common Modernist architectural style of the 20th and 21st century. Apples and oranges.
[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331830390' post='2401169']
Okay, I'll quote directly:
You said:





Musicæ Sacræ Disciplina said:
[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"[color=#000000]55. So it is that in the basilicas, cathedrals and churches of religious communities these magnificent works of the old masters and the polyphonic compositions of more recent musicians can be performed, contributing greatly to the beauty of the sacred rite. Likewise We know that simpler but genuinely artistic polyphonic compositions are often sung even in smaller churches.[/color][/font][/size]

Your statement, to me (especially with your emphasis), and taken in light of the other things you have posed in this thread (regarding scholas, how nothing better than the Pope Marcellus Mass has been composed, etc.), says that we should just continue to compose in the same manner Pope Gregory or Palestrina did, and if we can help it at all, that is all that should be sung in the Liturgy. I think it's pretty clear, as illustrated above by Pope St. Pius X, that that isn't the position of the Church.


As for the other part:


The church, in the relevant part of the document quoted above, pretty clearly states that everybody should sing. I understand that that is tangential to this discussion, but in seeing that while looking for that Pius X quote reminded me of it. Just thought you'd be interested to see what the Church had said about that.
[/quote]

You said:
"Your statement, to me (especially with your emphasis), and taken in light of the other things you have posed in this thread (regarding scholas, how nothing better than the Pope Marcellus Mass has been composed, etc.), says that we should just continue to compose in the same manner Pope Gregory or Palestrina did, and if we can help it at all, that is all that should be sung in the Liturgy. I think it's pretty clear, as illustrated above by Pope St. Pius X, that that isn't the position of the Church."

I said, in my artistic opinion, that the Missae Papae Marcelli was the most important non-Gregorian piece ever composed. Its use for papal coronations is my evidence for that opinion. I didn't say it was the most liturgically apt, simply the most important.
The second Vatican Council was perhaps the most important event in the Church since 1950, not necessarily because it was meant to be, but simply because that's how history thus far has rendered it.
So you're attributing to me positions I have not expressed.

"The church, in the relevant part of the document quoted above, pretty clearly states that everybody should sing. I understand that that is tangential to this discussion, but in seeing that while looking for that Pius X quote reminded me of it. Just thought you'd be interested to see what the Church had said about that."

Again, I did not say that singing is somehow bad. That's taking my quote out of context and way outside of its intended meaning. If you want to know what I meant, better to ask rather than to waste your own time arguing against a straw man.

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331830798' post='2401176']


I don't see where all the seats are set up for people to sit on all 4 sides of the altar but maybe they just don't show in the picture? I think by circular church NO was talking about churches that include circular seating, not just a circular shaped sanctuary.
[/quote]

I wasn't there on a Sunday, and they didn't ordinarily have chairs out. I was under the impression that the faithful encircled the Church for the Mass. The church doesn't have any rectangular offshoot... That circle IS the Church.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331789149' post='2401002']
I don't think I've even implied that sacred music should stay exactly as it was x number of centuries ago. That's silly, and you're attributing that to me with zero reason. I don't appreciate it and I think you should probably stop with that.
Are you familiar with the new Simple English Propers? Since I'm such a great guy, here you go: [url="http://musicasacra.com/books/simple_english_propers.pdf"]http://musicasacra.c...ish_propers.pdf[/url] That's the entire book. It caused quite a bit of excitement in the world of chant when it was finally published. There have been some great recordings made of it being used in regular parishes since then.

The fact, of course, remains that Gregorian chant is the sacred music most proper to the Roman Liturgy, and the objective standard by which all sacred music in the Roman Rite is measured.
"Gregorian chant, which is used in liturgical ceremonies, is the sacred music proper to the Roman Church; it is to be found in the liturgical books approved by the Holy See. This music has been reverently, and faithfully fostered, and developed from most ancient, and venerable traditions; and [b]even in recent times new chants have been composed in the style of this tradition[/b]. This style of music has no need of organ or other instrumental accompaniment."
[/quote]

Can you explain why Gregorian chant is so fitting to the liturgy? It's one thing to keep repeating that it is, it's another to actually understand the position you are taking. Which, given your lack of response to honest questions for USAir and Fransicanheart, I'm really not sure you get the reasoning behind it. Because they right, yeah chant is great, but to keep only chant (or chant and 15-16th century polyphony) is denying the faithful of a treasure which they deserve. And that really does seem to be what you are saying.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331829166' post='2401150']
I perceived it as extremely baiting. If that was not how it was intended then I apologize.
Nothing in that post directly addresses anything I've said. I don't know what you're trying to say, but it's certainly nothing I've offered an opinion on.
[/quote]

So far you've offered an opinion on what music is acceptable at Mass. You say chant and old polyphony. He called you on it, you said you have made no opinions on it. What? He directly quoted you and offered church documents that say exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331829166' post='2401150']
With regards to congregational singing and active participation:
You quoted me out of context and implied that I see no value in congregational singing. That is not the case.
[/quote]
And yet, when you go back and read the thread you are saying just that.
[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323835306' post='2350959']

The attitude that everyone needs to sing is the same attitude that says everyone needs to be 'doing something' to participate, for instance being an emhc. It is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Church has always taught about active participation.
[/quote]

No it is not. Church documents do not instruct the faithful to go out and be EMHCs. They do instruct them to learn to sing certain parts of the Mass.
[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323992487' post='2351838']
Two reasons.

1) Because I don't want to.
2) Because at most Masses in my diocese the music is wretched, both liturgically and musically.

However, number 1 takes precedence because I still don't sing at the T.L.M.

The extent to which I am able to truly participate in the Mass is not necessarily related to whether or not I choose to sing. I would argue that liturgically poor music would actually hinder my participation, and in fact I can give personal examples where it did just that.

[/quote]

Again, long before Vatican II, the church instructed the faithful that they should indeed learn the basic chants of the Mass [i]and sing them[/i]. Not wanting to is really not a great reason not to do so.


[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324002534' post='2351916']
Yes, it would be acceptable. True participation is about far, far more than the physical actions you perform.
At the T.L.M. it is not 'required' to say the responses out loud. That's first the job of the servers, and to a certain extent you could say the choir as well. Do people who currently go to the T.L.M., or who went between ~1500 and 1969 participate 'less' that Novus Ordo goers?
[/quote]

It is, however, still encouraged. (And yes, I've been liturgically trained for Traditional Latin Masses).

I'm reminded of

[quote][color=#000000]What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]15[/sup]And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]16[/sup]And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]17[/sup]So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]18[/sup]But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]19[/sup]Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]20[/sup]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]21[/sup]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]22[/sup]Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]23[/sup]And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]24[/sup]Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?[/color][color=#000000]
[sup]25[/sup]And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?[/color]
[color=#000000] [/color][sup]26[/sup][color=#000000]For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.[/color][/quote]


If I show up at mass and say "yo, God, I'm here ok?" and sit there bummed that I'm there, HOW is that different from someone who is at Mass and is off in their own world EVEN if that is praying the rosary or something. Neither one of those people is really participating in Mass.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331830798' post='2401176']
I don't see where all the seats are set up for people to sit on all 4 sides of the altar but maybe they just don't show in the picture? I think by circular church NO was talking about churches that include circular seating, not just a circular shaped sanctuary.
[/quote]
Thank you, yes.

[Slappo]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331830621' post='2401171']
[/font][/size]
[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I never said anything about how singing relates to active participation, only that the Church wants us to sing. And it isn't encouraged; the document says that "[color=#000000]there is no reason why they [shouldn't sing the] [/color][i]Kyrie, eleison; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei[/i][i][color=#000000]". [/color][/i][color=#000000]That's pretty strong language.[/color][/font][/size]
[/quote]

Taken out of context much? i like how you added in some words "shouldn't sing the". That's not what the document says and that's not the context the document says it in.

[color=#000000]b) Secondly, the congregation [u][b]can sing the parts[/b][/u] of the Ordinary of the Mass: [/color][i]Kyrie, eleison; Gloria in excelsis Deo; Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei[/i][color=#000000]. Every effort must be made that the faithful learn to sing these parts, particularly according to the simpler Gregorian melodies. [u][b]But if they are unable to sing all these parts, there is no reason why they cannot sing[/b][/u] the easier ones: [/color][i]Kyrie, eleison; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei[/i][color=#000000]; the choir, then, can sing the [/color][i]Gloria[/i][color=#000000], and [/color][i]Credo[/i][color=#000000]."[/color]

In other words: The faithful can, are permitted to sing the parts of the ordinary of the mass, and effort must be made that they learn these parts (regardless of if they sing them they should learn them), but if they are unable to sing all of the parts, they can still sing some of them.

Quite different than "There is no reason they should not sing..."

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331830621' post='2401171']
Show of hands for who wants David Haas in the mass? No one? Good.
[/quote]

Haas was an example and you know it. I don't know anyone on PM that likes Haas, Haugen, or any of those folks, but what I'm saying is there is a WIDE WIDE stretch of music that has been created for the liturgy outside of chant, and it stretches from polyphony to Haas et al., so yes there sacred music outside of gregorian chant, but it doesn't mean by necessity that it includes guitars, or a lot of what churches use today. Again I'm not making an argument for what is and is not sacred music, I am just saying that the document you cited does not necessitate that a lot of the modern music sung today is sacred music.

So much for making one comment and bowing out.

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331831011' post='2401178']


There are a few notable exceptions, and looking in greater detail the reasons for that do become apparent. It's not really fair to compare a rather unique fifth century church to an all too common Modernist architectural style of the 20th and 21st century. Apples and oranges.
[/quote]

This argument is ad hoc and rediculous. Those Churches are [i]modeled[/i] after that ancient structure. I was an accepted structure from ancient times, from the Greek temples, even. You use the same "by the ancients" argument for many of your own choice trollings.

A fruit by any other name is still a fruit, and I hear the pope likes bananas.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Deus_te_Amat

[Slappo]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1331830866' post='2401177']
were the people still standing/kneeling (no sitting) throughout Mass at that point? (honest question.)
[/quote]

Very good point, I'm not sure when pews were introduced.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331830222' post='2401164']
Two quick things and I'll butt my head back out:
Just because signing is encourage doesn't mean it is a required part of active participation. Active participation is the raising up of ones soul to the actions taking place at mass. For some, it might be beneficial for them to sing, for others they may need to stay perfectly silent as they meditate on the liturgical actions and the worship being given to God.

The documents reference chant and other forms of sacred music. FYI Polyphony is not considered chant, so it's a large stretch to go from chant as pride of place to David Haas as sacred music. I'm not commenting on if it is possible or not, merely that it is a large stretch, and that there are other forms of sacred music that are much closer to the design of chant then David Haas is.
[/quote]
I sincerely hope that my post did not imply an endorsement of Haugen OR Haas. And actually, now that I think on that, such a reaction or assumption would also be, as you say, a large stretch.

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331830621' post='2401171']
Show of hands for who wants David Haas in the mass? No one? Good.
[/quote]
*hides hands*

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1331830671' post='2401172']
oh, sweet mercy, no.
[/quote]
my thought exactly

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1331831391' post='2401183']
This argument is ad hoc and rediculous. Those Churches are [i]modeled[/i] after that ancient structure. I was an accepted structure from ancient times, from the Greek temples, even. You use the same "by the ancients" argument for many of your own pet trollings.

A fruit by any other name is still a fruit, and I hear the pope likes bananas.
[/quote]

You're saying that ultramodern monstrosities of the late 20th and 21st centuries are in fact modeled after the earliest Roman churches? If you can back that up I'd be glad to discuss it further, but it's quite an assertion.

Beyond that, I'm certainly not trolling and it's absolutely unfair to accuse me of that. I'm not sure what you've got against me. I certainly don't recall ever being less than respectful with you. In fact I recall rather liking you.
So... yeah, lolwut?