How All Catholic Churches Should Look!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1331753857' post='2400730']
I hate to be obnoxious about it, but in the middle ages the solution was obvious to them: pay for good religious art like you mean it! Patronage is how you get good art, no matter what kind you want. The modernists get tons of very nice, objectively modern art because they will pay for it, so their artists don't have the choice of a) making good art and starving or b) stopping the art and working at a grocery store.
[/quote]

You're on the right track.

Look at what we've got though. What motivation does a priest have to shell out for a top quality schola, when the local music teacher is willing to plink on his 12 string acoustic with an out of tune choir better suited for karaoke, for a nominal fee? (That, in fact, is the exact situation at the parish I no longer attend.)

The problem has so many different threads, it's so hard to find which ones are most important to tug on to unravel everything. I would say that the Liturgy is first, which is intimately related to formation in seminaries, which in turn is tied to the strength and orthodoxy of our bishops. The tricky part is that we have to change everything simultaneously to get back on the path to legitimate renewal. We've taken the first tiny steps, but we're only just starting to see some results.

[arfink]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331754286' post='2400736']
You're on the right track.

Look at what we've got though. What motivation does a priest have to shell out for a top quality schola, when the local music teacher is willing to plink on his 12 string acoustic with an out of tune choir better suited for karaoke, for a nominal fee? (That, in fact, is the exact situation at the parish I no longer attend.)

The problem has so many different threads, it's so hard to find which ones are most important to tug on to unravel everything. I would say that the Liturgy is first, which is intimately related to formation in seminaries, which in turn is tied to the strength and orthodoxy of our bishops. The tricky part is that we have to change everything simultaneously to get back on the path to legitimate renewal. We've taken the first tiny steps, but we're only just starting to see some results.
[/quote]

Or, instead they could do what they're gonna do at my parish:
When the building was made in the early 40's they didn't have the money for finishing the interior as they wanted. The stained glass was designed and never made, the frescoes never painted. The walls that would have been covered in frescoe were painted pale blue, and windows filled with rectangular tiles of pastel colored glass. Inoffensive and inexpensive. It sat like that for decades, and most parishioners didn't really mind that much, since everything else was quite nice, and after all, we couldn't afford better.

Now recently a couple of parishoners cleaning out some unused cupboards in the rectory came across the original plans. They convinced (without telling the pastor first) a few wealthy parishioners to approach the pastor and say "We will pay for these designs to be completed."

I'll agree that a pastor left on his own, with no support from bishop or parish, will usually look at the parish finances, despair of ever affording anything worthwhile, and just hire some dude with a guitar. But if a bishop won't step in, we can push the next best alternative: talk people with money into paying for it. If someone will pay for it you can make it happen.

Also, we shouldn't discard the idea of private patronage either. How many of us, in our own homes, display religious art that is either a) made by a faithful artisan, perhaps someone we know, or b) mass produced by some religious art conglomerate with a legion of photocopiers. Sure, most people can't hire a Michaelangelo for their own home. But how will we ever find one such artist if we don't support ANY artisans? How many artists wish to be faithful and go to art school and follow modernism because there is money to be made?

Edited March 14, 2012 by arfink

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1331754789' post='2400740']
Or, instead they could do what they're gonna do at my parish:
When the building was made in the early 40's they didn't have the money for finishing the interior as they wanted. The stained glass was designed and never made, the frescoes never painted. The walls that would have been covered in frescoe were painted pale blue, and windows filled with rectangular tiles of pastel colored glass. Inoffensive and inexpensive. It sat like that for decades, and most parishioners didn't really mind that much, since everything else was quite nice, and after all, we couldn't afford better.

Now recently a couple of parishoners cleaning out some unused cupboards in the rectory came across the original plans. They convinced (without telling the pastor first) a few wealthy parishioners to approach the pastor and say "We will pay for these designs to be completed."

I'll agree that a pastor left on his own, with no support from bishop or parish, will usually look at the parish finances, despair of ever affording anything worthwhile, and just hire some dude with a guitar. But if a bishop won't step in, we can push the next best alternative: talk people with money into paying for it. If someone will pay for it you can make it happen.
[/quote]

Man, I hope we see more of that. I can't say I've ever personally seen something along those lines happen, but you never know. I also haven't lived that long.

If I become fabulously rich, then I'll personally fund a Traditional Latin Mass parish with a full schola and enough priests to celebrate solemn Masses.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1331753348' post='2400718']
The above is Chartes Cathedral. Everything about its architecture is for God's glory, not a art/etc.
[/quote]

Meant to address this. I think it's quite clear that architecture is an art form. I can't think of a robust definition of art that doesn't also allow architecture as one expression.

[arfink]

In the realm of music, how many great Masses do we have today as a result of private patronage? A lot. Mozart and Palestrina come to mind. They weren't meant for official use in Mass- someone paid them to make it because they wanted it made, not even because it was expedient for use in Mass.

[Papist]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1331753475' post='2400722']
If you don't think that Chartes is art then I can't help. The idea that crafting something for the glory of God and "doing art" are somehow mutually exclusive is insane.
[/quote]

I did not say it was not art. The architecture is designed to glorified God, not designed to be art for man. Of course, we can step back and view the finished product and say, wow that is a piece of art. The modernist churches above are designed to be art for man. that are sterile of the glory to God. Art is not synonymous with glory to God....IMO

I highly recommend this DVD.

[img]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ARQ3SDX5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg[/img]

Edited March 14, 2012 by Papist

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1331755544' post='2400753']
In the realm of music, how many great Masses do we have today as a result of private patronage? A lot. Mozart and Palestrina come to mind. They weren't meant for official use in Mass- someone paid them to make it because they wanted it made, not even because it was expedient for use in Mass.
[/quote]

Yep, and look at, for instance, the Missae Papae Marcelli. Perhaps the most important non-plainchant Mass setting ever composed. This is starting to remind me of the comment I made yesterday about the Renaissance being the pinnacle of art in western culture thus far. :D

[Papist]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331755202' post='2400750']
Meant to address this. I think it's quite clear that architecture is an art form. I can't think of a robust definition of art that doesn't also allow architecture as one expression.
[/quote]

Yes. It is hard far me to articulate. I'll try. The designers/builders were glorifying God building the cathedrals. That was their focus. They didn't consider themselves as producing art for art's sake.

If I go to Adoration to glorify God, is that art?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1331756409' post='2400765']
Yes. It is hard far me to articulate. I'll try. The designers/builders were glorifying God building the cathedrals. That was their focus. They didn't consider themselves as producing art for art's sake.
[/quote]
It was sacred art, which is a specific sort of art. I think it can just be as simple as that.
I don't think art has to be made for its own sake in order to be considered art. I'm tempted to speculate that art being an end in itself was one of the reasons it sort of went off the rails in modern times.

[Papist]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331756748' post='2400770']
It was sacred art, which is a specific sort of art. I think it can just be as simple as that.
I don't think art has to be made for its own sake in order to be considered art. I'm tempted to speculate that art being an end in itself was one of the reasons it sort of went off the rails in modern times.
[/quote]

I think we are saying the same thing.

[Jesus_lol]

well, if the Church was made to protect mankind, i think we all know which one we would run for when the zombies come. Brutalist consecrated fortress please!

[SaintOlaf]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1331765344' post='2400826']
well, if the Church was made to protect mankind, i think we all know which one we would run for when the zombies come. Brutalist consecrated fortress please!
[/quote]

Everyone knows big buildings are not easily defensible against the undead hordes.... Gimme a small secluded cabin

[Basilisa Marie]

First thought when looking at the OP:

"Man, Jesus_lol is finally trying to insight a riot on Phatmass."

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1331772832' post='2400867']
First thought when looking at the OP:

"Man, Jesus_lol is finally trying to insight a riot on Phatmass."
[/quote]

MT thought so too


you girls are perceptive.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1331763145' post='2400812']
I think we are saying the same thing.
[/quote]
That is often the case.