Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331882686' post='2401717'] At the Mass I attend (also the Mass at which I sing), we chant all of the propers and still manage to sing two hymns. Other Masses at our parish do not and yet, they are just as valid and wonderful. Why? Because it is a Mass. [/quote] As I said, chanted propers leave some, though less room for hymnody. I do think that having some limited use of traditional hymns during Mass is not necessarily improper, however they're extras. The propers, being an integral part of the Mass, should never be replaced by hymns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331913972' post='2401838'] As I said, chanted propers leave some, though less room for hymnody. I do think that having some limited use of traditional hymns during Mass is not necessarily improper, however they're extras. The propers, being an integral part of the Mass, should never be replaced by hymns. [/quote] Well how gracious of you! By the way, I never suggested they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331916093' post='2401850'] Well how gracious of you! By the way, I never suggested they should. [/quote] The general attitude these days is that hymns can, even should replace the propers. I dunno where it came from. Actually I do, we just won't get into that right now. The 'average Catholic' doesn't even really know what the propers are, which is kind of shocking from a liturgical perspective. It's going to take a lot of work to bring them back to their place of honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Nihil, it came from option 4 in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. Replacing the propers with approved hymns is indeed permitted, and it is indeed what liturgical restorationists ought to be arguing against. And whether or not anyone argues that they should be replaced or shouldn't be replaced, we should always bring it up in every discussion about music in the liturgy, the starting point should be "in most places we have lost the propers completely. no matter what music for hymns you like or I like, can you agree with me that the chanting of the propers ought to be restored?" I realize that's not exactly the direction this convo started out in, but it looks like where it's ended up after two ships were passing in the night for a while: all of us here involved in the present discussion agree that the chanting of the propers, which is in disuse in MOST parishes accross the world right now, ought to be restored, whatever else kind of music might be done in addition to it. to claim it's an unrelated issue is erroneous; if you truly have a parish that both chants all the propers AND has hymns sung, then I can understand why you might not have seen the issue here, but the vast majority of parishes replace the propers with hymns (as is their option in the GIRM) and so any discussion about musical styles in the mass needs to include first and foremost: bring back the chant of the propers, it is our heritage, it is our calandar, it is our spirituality, and we are missing out on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1331855010' post='2401477'] (moving to debate table.) [/quote] not a bad firestorm for a single image post... [spoiler][img]http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//56/7d/567d4330074c3b1bfe5065581ea096db.jpg[/img][/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1331918763' post='2401872'] Nihil, it came from option 4 in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. Replacing the propers with approved hymns is indeed permitted, and it is indeed what liturgical restorationists ought to be arguing against. And whether or not anyone argues that they should be replaced or shouldn't be replaced, we should always bring it up in every discussion about music in the liturgy, the starting point should be "in most places we have lost the propers completely. no matter what music for hymns you like or I like, can you agree with me that the chanting of the propers ought to be restored?" I realize that's not exactly the direction this convo started out in, but it looks like where it's ended up after two ships were passing in the night for a while: all of us here involved in the present discussion agree that the chanting of the propers, which is in disuse in MOST parishes accross the world right now, ought to be restored, whatever else kind of music might be done in addition to it. to claim it's an unrelated issue is erroneous; if you truly have a parish that both chants all the propers AND has hymns sung, then I can understand why you might not have seen the issue here, but the vast majority of parishes replace the propers with hymns (as is their option in the GIRM) and so any discussion about musical styles in the mass needs to include first and foremost: bring back the chant of the propers, it is our heritage, it is our calandar, it is our spirituality, and we are missing out on it. [/quote] [i][size=2]True lesson in humility: having a post about which you were most pleased erased before saving or submitting. And then trying to recreate it. And not being able to do so. Le sigh.[/size][/i] That is an opinion I hold also, and understand it is not widely accepted. My frustration in circles like these ultimately lies in the lack of respect for the people who believe differently than do I (or in this case, we). Our passions, when perceived as arrogance, can have no positive impact on those who will disagree, either because of ignorance or obdurateness. Frankly, the motivation matters little as long as we refuse to take accountability for our words and actions; humble ourselves to simple, truly kind communication; and show true respect for the pastoral body which sanctioned the use of hymns in place of propers. Those who are ignorant will not be led to fuller understanding through harsh, scholarly criticism; those who are obdurate will not experience a softening of heart through encounters with arrogance and egotism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331922038' post='2401894']obdurateness. obdurate [/quote] props just for using this word twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1331923059' post='2401900'] props just for using this word twice. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331882686' post='2401717'] At the Mass I attend (also the Mass at which I sing), we chant all of the propers and still manage to sing two hymns. Other Masses at our parish do not and yet, they are just as valid and wonderful. Why? Because it is a Mass. It's less that I disagree with your interpretation of the documents from the Church, and more that I find unease with your arrogance concerning what is right. Those who sing music composed by Haugen are not less than you as Catholics or as humans, nor are they necessarily damaged by their participation. Don't get me wrong: I'm the last person to belt out a Haugen tune, but I also wouldn't go around letting everyone know why I wasn't singing. Again, not really sure where guitars and pianos came into this conversation. No one is arguing about guitars in this thread. Let me rephrase: you come off as arrogant here. [/quote] I don't see where I ran around letting everyone know why I don't sing haugen or haas? I don't think a post on a forum in which 99% of people don't know my true identity, and most of them are like minded on the topic is me [b]running around letting everyone know[/b] why I don't sing particular songs. I don't talk to other people in my parish about why I don't sing at mass, and those that I may talk to about it I do for the sake of change, not pure criticism. So I don't sing at mass, but I don't rub it in everyone's face either. I don't sing at Traditional Latin Masses, I don't sing at Novus Ordo's. It's rare that I ever sing at mass even when it is a hymn I really like or chant that I know. Like I said previously about the guitars and piano's: I was just bringing up a point, [b]I wasn't commenting on anything anyone had previously said[/b]. Can we get over the guitars and piano's now please? As for the arrogance: no comment. To each their own. Edited March 16, 2012 by Slappo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331924304' post='2401913'] I don't see where I ran around letting everyone know why I don't sing haugen or haas? I don't think a post on a forum in which 99% of people don't know my true identity, and most of them are like minded on the topic is me [b]running around letting everyone know[/b] why I don't sing particular songs. I don't talk to other people in my parish about why I don't sing at mass, and those that I may talk to about it I do for the sake of change, not pure criticism. So I don't sing at mass, but I don't rub it in everyone's face either. I don't sing at Traditional Latin Masses, I don't sing at Novus Ordo's. It's rare that I ever sing at mass even when it is a hymn I really like or chant that I know. Like I said previously about the guitars and piano's: I was just bringing up a point, [b]I wasn't commenting on anything anyone had previously said[/b]. Can we get over the guitars and piano's now please? As for the arrogance: no comment. To each their own. [/quote] Alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1331918763' post='2401872'] Nihil, it came from option 4 in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. Replacing the propers with approved hymns is indeed permitted, and it is indeed what liturgical restorationists ought to be arguing against. And whether or not anyone argues that they should be replaced or shouldn't be replaced, we should always bring it up in every discussion about music in the liturgy, the starting point should be "in most places we have lost the propers completely. no matter what music for hymns you like or I like, can you agree with me that the chanting of the propers ought to be restored?" I realize that's not exactly the direction this convo started out in, but it looks like where it's ended up after two ships were passing in the night for a while: all of us here involved in the present discussion agree that the chanting of the propers, which is in disuse in MOST parishes accross the world right now, ought to be restored, whatever else kind of music might be done in addition to it. to claim it's an unrelated issue is erroneous; if you truly have a parish that both chants all the propers AND has hymns sung, then I can understand why you might not have seen the issue here, but the vast majority of parishes replace the propers with hymns (as is their option in the GIRM) and so any discussion about musical styles in the mass needs to include first and foremost: bring back the chant of the propers, it is our heritage, it is our calandar, it is our spirituality, and we are missing out on it. [/quote] Laszlo Dobszay was saying that "option 4" was perhaps the single worst thing in all of the Second Vatican Council. I lol'd. I was going to wait for someone else to open that up before I did. Seems to work best that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the171 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 All I have to say: Jesus_lol, this is flipping hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 [quote name='the171' timestamp='1331955058' post='2402227'] All I have to say: Jesus_lol, this is flipping hilarious. [/quote] its like I tossed a live grenade in a room and locked the door Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the171 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1331964105' post='2402275'] its like I tossed a live grenade in a room and locked the door [/quote] And then another and another and another.... ROTFLSHTMSFOAIDMT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331922038' post='2401894'] [i][size=2]True lesson in humility: having a post about which you were most pleased erased before saving or submitting. And then trying to recreate it. And not being able to do so. Le sigh.[/size][/i] That is an opinion I hold also, and understand it is not widely accepted. My frustration in circles like these ultimately lies in the lack of respect for the people who believe differently than do I (or in this case, we). Our passions, when perceived as arrogance, can have no positive impact on those who will disagree, either because of ignorance or obdurateness. Frankly, the motivation matters little as long as we refuse to take accountability for our words and actions; humble ourselves to simple, truly kind communication; and show true respect for the pastoral body which sanctioned the use of hymns in place of propers. Those who are ignorant will not be led to fuller understanding through harsh, scholarly criticism; those who are obdurate will not experience a softening of heart through encounters with arrogance and egotism. [/quote] Perception is reality. Okay, done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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